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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA (KMCI)
It seems like our simming is starting to get closer and closer to needing real things. We're already seeing this with the fedelity of scenery and aircraft and now we're seeing it and needing it for everyday use even on the not for profit side, such as VATSIM, SimRoutes, etc.

If it's going to be the same info as DAFIF and we're going to have to pay for it, I think I'd rather explore other options such as Jeppessen which covers everything in every part of the world.

I did check some years back with them and they would only provide limited and outdated service for simmers, but that was at reduced rates.

I think I'll take the lead on this one and call them first thing TUE and see what it would cost for both non profit and for profit use of current navdata only without any charting service, etc. If I remember correctly they were going to let users (or us) pull directly from their servers.

With any luck (fingers crossed), we can hopefully get something done without being charged an arm and a leg. If we're going to have a standard I think it should have everything, not just the same limited data as DAFIF.

Give me some time on this one and we'll see what happens.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:56 pm 
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Quote:
IMHO the best solution to overcome this problem would be to supply the user with a downloadable application which is then responsible to create the individual files for all the different addons from one standardized data set.


IIRC Martin, Richard talked about a similar thing quite a while ago when he was being asked to produce files for different add-ons.

His idea was to supply the raw data that he uses and then produce a 'converter' application with which the end user would create files for the different add-ons.
This would save Richard having to do all the conversions, he would only need to amend the converter when required.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:32 am 
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this combined with the payware developers standardising there use of the data for future releases as FSX becomes mainstream would all help with a reduction in downloads and also cost.

The Jeppson idea sounds good also, as if we are going to pay then why not get the best and most uptodate data and package.

Or perhaps someone will win the lottery and donate all the neccessary funds to keep it free!!!

Regards

James Carr


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:28 pm 
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Posts: 200
Folks, how about stopping the wild speculations without factual basis?

Richard will get a complete, world-wide database from one of the 2-3 manufacturers of such a thing in the world (EAG, the others are Jeppesen and perhaps Lufthansa FlighNav [I don't know for sure wether the latter do maintain a really worldwide database]). This will not only include the standard data (VORs, NDBs, Fixes, Airways, Airports, Runways, ...) but also all the terminal area procedures (SIDs, STARs, transitions) together with the associated fixes. And this data is the same data actually uploaded into real airliner FMS.

Guys, this is far beyond and above anything offered by DAFIF. It's the royal flush. I'm amazed that EAG actually agreed to such a deal. We as the sim community can consider ourselves ultra-lucky.

BTW: feel free to mail your payward add-on aircraft manufacturers trying to convince them to negotiate a deal with Navigraph/Richard for a lifetime subscription included with the add-on. That'd be a nice thing indeed.

Regards,
Daniel


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Posts: 254
Location: LFNA
looks like i feel myself ultra lucky to being offered the opportunity to pay for something that was free in the past.

there will be ultra lucky people that pay, and ultra unlucky people that dont have the money to pay.
Maybe we should start standardizing a ATC ATIS info or pilot comment saying : "IMULTPFND" -> "I am ultra lucky to pay for NavData" and "IMUUNTHTMTPFND" -> "I am ultra unlucky not to have the money to pay for NavData".

How long will it take for ATC to refuse controlling a pilot because he is not able to follow waypoints because he doesnt pay ?

Maybe its time for our community of virtual pilots and real pilots to think of a Navipedia where we could all contribute to a free navdata database, just a idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:12 pm 
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA (KMCI)
Ben,

Think of it this way.

Back in the day, of FS, we didn't have FMC's. Real pilots did, but they have to pay for monthly updates. They've always had to pay for them.

I don't agree with DAFIF being pulled, but the fact is, DAFIF didn't have a vast majority of procedures either.

The bottom line is that our hobby is growing and matching if not exceeding the fidelity now of the real world, so we're going to have to grow along with it, unfortunatley.

You don't need the data to fly. You can still use old fashioned charts if you want.

It's not a perfect scenerio thats for sure, but lets see what happens in the next few days. Hopefully I can come up with something. It'll be a long shot, no doubt about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Location: Frankfurt am Main / Germany
Ben,

Quote:
looks like i feel myself ultra lucky to being offered the opportunity to pay for something that was free in the past.


It was not free in the past. What was free in the past was an incomplete, error-loaded database with basic navigation data, lacking very important parts such as terminal RNAV fixes, some important airways etc. etc. What is now offered is an commercial-level full-featured database without such errors, and very soon also including complete worldwide terminal procedures.

Yes, you should really feel ultra lucky. If not I suggest you to point out a non-cost alternative on the same quality level. Good luck !

Quote:
How long will it take for ATC to refuse controlling a pilot because he is not able to follow waypoints because he doesnt pay ?


On VATSIM? Forever. VATSIM will never require you to pay for something in order to be able to use VATSIM (except for your internet access).

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Martin Georg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:43 am 
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA (KMCI)
As far as I'm aware VATSIM itself doesn't need NAVDATA, just the programs that work with it, unless VATSIM is going to incorporate some type of virtual flight tracking software. I could be wrong there, but I don't think VATSIM needs the data.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:00 pm
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How much [money] are we talking per cycle?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:03 am 
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA (KMCI)
Even if I had an idea at this point I wouldn't say anything until any details were all but finalized. This is going to take some time and I'm not even certain we can get a viable cost effective option for what we need.

I'd ideally like it to be free for end users of free flight planning sites, etc. Other then that I'm still devleloping the ideas myself and trying to get my head around the whole issue and figuring out who needs what and when for both free services and payware.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:42 am 
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Quote:
How much [money] are we talking per cycle?


Around 10 credits, that´s what Richard Stefan indicated.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:55 am
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Location: Vienna
Ian Elchitz 810151 wrote:
Honestly - this is quite disheartening.

I have no idea how this is going to work in the case of SimRoutes. I haven't spoken to any of the navigraph people as of yet, but assuming they are charging on a per person model - I'm not sure how this is going to impact the future of SimRoutes (or any other flightplanners out there that parse routes into waypoints).

If anyone has any ideas for SimRoutes - please feel free to give me a shout. I'm not interested in charging people for anything, and to be honest the site has already cost me more money than I care to elaborate on since the original was launched in 2000.

I'd really like to swear out loud here.


Ian, we will find a way - believe me! Not immediatly, because due the many chances i have a lot of work but there must be a way to go forward of SIMROUTES!
Richard


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:52 pm 
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Location: Vienna
Benjamin Fels 871459 wrote:
looks like i feel myself ultra lucky to being offered the opportunity to pay for something that was free in the past.

there will be ultra lucky people that pay, and ultra unlucky people that dont have the money to pay.
Maybe we should start standardizing a ATC ATIS info or pilot comment saying : "IMULTPFND" -> "I am ultra lucky to pay for NavData" and "IMUUNTHTMTPFND" -> "I am ultra unlucky not to have the money to pay for NavData".

How long will it take for ATC to refuse controlling a pilot because he is not able to follow waypoints because he doesnt pay ?

Maybe its time for our community of virtual pilots and real pilots to think of a Navipedia where we could all contribute to a free navdata database, just a idea.


Sorry Benjamin, but nobody need the updates - because when nobody have money, nobody can´t have any addon with an FMC ... these addons are essential dearer as a year navdata service in the future. Sorry, but i don´t understand such arguments ...
One word to Navipedia: Good luck with the updates - we are talking here from thousands of records worldwide, including terminal procedures ... and who will be check it against the real world?

Richard


Last edited by Richard Stefan 810549 on Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:26 pm 
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Location: Vienna
Hi gents,
due a link in my forum, i have read the whole posting now - thanks to Corey!

Only a few words about the updates, the future service and on what i´m currently working:
The update comes out monthly as in the past. The main source is from the EAG (=European Aeronautical Group), and it´s a very professional and complete source including terminal procedures. Someone will be remind to Prabal Gosh. His database was from a very high standard and you can expect the same now. Navigraph was a important part for me that i can offer these datas but not for free, because we must pay a license fee to EAG.

I believe everyone understand, that Navigraph or i can pay for what and provide it for free. We are not talking here of a few cent. In my eyes Navigraph has a professional webpage with a professional kind of payment. Navigraph has the complete logic behind it and has the right webspace for it. So all that was my intention to make a partnership with Navigraph. I have fully support from there, gets my source and have a fully infrastucture which i can use. Navigraph has a new product and can push there products better as before. We have search a "win-to-win" solution and have found it ...

The price-model is´nt still ready now, because Navigraph must calculate to avoide that the incomings are less than the outgoings. It´s not so easy to calculate because nobody of us knows how many user, which have used the free-service, will use the new pay-service. We hope all, because beside of the navdata´s we can offer the terminal procedures too - and that monthly. This is a complete new part and in my eyes a goody ...

Someone here wrote about the generic database. This is one future point. After several months i´m ready with the structure and i already use it by my own. My goal is to provide one large datafile and every addon-developer can use it and can develope his product with it (like flightplaner, fmc, ...). Currently we have several formats and we need several setup routines ... it costs time, money, traffic, ... not very practicable! For the current addons, we can´t change it but we can try to apply the new structure in the upcoming addons! The FSX stands for our doors and i HOPE!! all developer have the same opinion as i that we need a standardised database.

Last what i do now!
I have imported the new EAG source into my structure and now i´m currently redesign the export modules. Someone are a little bit tricky - like FSNavigator or the F1-ATR, but this is the easierst part of all. The new source will be online with AIRAC 0610, means with next AIRAC. I will provide it as now in single setup files, each file for each addon, on the Navigraph webpage. These files will not yet include the terminal procedures because this is a part which is very complex due the missing standard structure of the addons. The terminal procedure will be added step by step and with 0701 following addons should be included the terminal procedures: PMDG, LEVELD, PSS, F1-ATR. All other addons, like CRJ or AVRO, ... will be added after this date.

Than i have a list of open tasks, means which addons i should added: ARIANE, WILCO 737PIC, ERJ, SSW - all with terminal procedures too ...

That´s it for now - i´m not the best writter in english but i hope you understand these few words and i hope you understand what i want to say with it. Give the new source a try and than you can make your decision if this service is to worth to pay or not. I suggest yes - but everybody should form his own opinion ...

Kind regards,
Richard


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:39 pm 
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Location: KDAB
Richard, I love it and cannot wait to start getting it..I like the idea of the terminal procedures as well. :)

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