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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:40 am
Posts: 190
Location: Davenport, IA
I am planning to fly from KBHM to KMIA. I like to use Flightaware.com recently flown routes. Here's one below (KBHM-KMIA) that has really stumped me:

SE9 VUZ155050 MGM SZW SSCOT1

Of course, the part of the route that is puzzling is "SE9 VuZ155050". The rest of the route I understand just fine.

The only SID for Birmingham airport is BHM3.

I know I can go to simroutes, Vroute, etc. and get a route that I could fly on VATSIM, but I like to keep my routes I fly as current and real world as possible. Besides, it helps me learn new things and hopefully someone understand and can explain this route. I've googled it and found nothing.

Can anyone help me out?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Location: Las Vegas/Sacramento
Robert Bressert 1139527 wrote:
I am planning to fly from KBHM to KMIA. I like to use Flightaware.com recently flown routes. Here's one below (KBHM-KMIA) that has really stumped me:

SE9 VUZ155050 MGM SZW SSCOT1

Of course, the part of the route that is puzzling is "SE9 VuZ155050". The rest of the route I understand just fine.

The only SID for Birmingham airport is BHM3.

I know I can go to simroutes, Vroute, etc. and get a route that I could fly on VATSIM, but I like to keep my routes I fly as current and real world as possible. Besides, it helps me learn new things and hopefully someone understand and can explain this route. I've googled it and found nothing.

Can anyone help me out?


VUZ155050 is the Vulcan 155 radial, 50DME fix. So after you start the BHM3 SID, get radar vectors to VUZ, then you'll join the VUZ 155 radial outbound until you are 50DME from VUZ, then direct Montgomery.

Looking further into that route, crossing the route with SkyVector, it's weird that they would route this flight that way. VUZ R-155 is slightly east of J41, which VUZ, MGM, and SZW are all on. The flight would have to turn to a 190 heading that far out to cover the intercept back directly to MGM. The only reason I could think of that they would do this is that they wouldn't be high enough to join the airway until they are closer to MGM.

SE9 also has me stumped. FlightAware can't decode the route, either.

BL.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:00 am
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Location: Established on ILS 29 KOAK
Something I found online:

http://www.beanairlinepilot.com/forums/ ... uting.html

So you won't be going up to VUZ but join the VUZ155 after starting SE bound. I am so used to seeing PBD as either VUZ/155/050 or VUZ150/050 that I really didn't understand at first glance, tks to BL, now I know :)

Cheers!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:01 am 
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Posts: 10684
Location: Miami, FL
look out for company procedures aswell. youll see them every now and then, only way youll get that chart/procedure is from the company (unless a VA manages to share that with theyre pilots :lol: )

youll see those a lot out of orlando and a few others.

btw if you hit the decode link in flightaware itll show you all the waypoints (if you dont know that already)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:48 am 
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Posts: 1170
SE9 could be a codified route number that accidentally got filed by dispatch, it's unlikely to be a company procedure they would have to comply with the FAA's standards (in name, protection, etc).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:55 am
Posts: 250
Location: NC
It appears it's a "shorthand" for Departure & Center that Birmingham is allowed to do, because vZTL is doing it too. Last night I flew from KBHM to Raleigh during the event, and this is what I filed:

BHM3 VUZ J22 VXV J22 PSK SBV4

Looking at the flight record later, this was the ammended plan:

+NE9 VXV J22 PSK SBV4

I was vectored to the NE, then cleared direct VXV (195 miles away) almost immediately. Never had to join the airway. Not sure what the 9 means. A friend flew to Charlotte and his was ammended to +9NE also. It struck me that maybe they need to save the data-tag note for something else, but I don't know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:40 am
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Location: Davenport, IA
OK, I've understand the "VUZ155050" part now. But, SE9?

Also, Ernesto, the "decode" option in Flightaware brings up "Error: Unable to decode route (SE9 VUZ155050 MGM SZW SSCOT1)"

Jason, I think every flight flown for American Eagle from KBHM to KMIA has SE9 in the route.

Charan, I saw that forum at beanairlinepilot.com too. I can understand SE being the initial heading, but what about the "9"?

Then, one more thing. The only navigational device I have is the default GPS in FSX. How would I program this route into the GPS? Or maybe I can't.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:21 am 
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Posts: 10684
Location: Miami, FL
the first one you would have to fly manually if you are using the gps. its been too long since i used it, not sure if it would let you draw out the radial on the map to add it like a gps waypoint, or you could use the sectional at skyvector to draw it out and get your gps coordinates, altho itd be good to learn how to track the radial :wink: . the sscot1 you definitely wont be able to program into the gps unless you have updated the gps data, pretty much all the waypoints on this arrival are new and are not in the stock nav data, your alternate arrival would be the Cypress 5 (CYY5) which you can catch from PIE. youll have these with the default nav data, its been around a long time.

so instead of getting the sscot1 from SZW, do SZW PIE CYY5 if you go the alternate way

if you dont want to fly the radial, just file "VUZ MGM" without the radial. nothing preventing you from doing that, its just how the dispatchers choose to route this flight. could be for any number of reasons, avoiding airspace, weather, etc..

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:01 am 
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Posts: 190
Location: Davenport, IA
Ernesto, the latter part of this route is no problem. I can fly sccot1. I've updated the waypoints, etc. with Graham Mitchell's wonderful AIRAC update file.

I'm just trying to solve a mystery about what "SE9" means. It's there for a reason and it's buggin' me to death.

I could fly other routes, but since I fly with AvA, I'd like to keep it real. They're American Eagle flights between KBHM and KMIA all fly this route, at least, according to Flightaware.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:03 am 
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Location: Davenport, IA
BTW, if anyone is looking for updates to FSX or FS9 waypoints, look here: http://www.btinternet.com/~gb.mitch/index.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:00 am
Posts: 28
SE9 as well as the others are most likely just departure 'gates' for the controller to send departures through and won't be in your FMC or GPS...

Examples from what I can make out:
EA9: East - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JIA278
SE9: Southeast - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EGF3612
SW9: Southwest - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BTA3047
WE9: West - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1983
NW9: Northwest - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX1288
NE9: Northeast - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BTA5740

Ernesto Alvarez 818262 wrote:
look out for company procedures aswell. youll see them every now and then, only way youll get that chart/procedure is from the company (unless a VA manages to share that with theyre pilots :lol: )

youll see those a lot out of orlando and a few others.


Actually, those aren't company procedures out of Orlando. MCO has their own departure gates as well (CAMDT, FMYDT, VALCA, etc.) in addition to a couple SIDs to the north (The RNAV SIDs are *still* not used as per NOTAM). They're referred to as "Departure Transition Areas" and are essentially pre-determined climb corridors due to the congested and complex Florida airspace.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:00 pm
Posts: 54
Stephen Faison 920525 wrote:
SE9 as well as the others are most likely just departure 'gates' for the controller to send departures through and won't be in your FMC or GPS...

Examples from what I can make out:
EA9: East - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JIA278
SE9: Southeast - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/EGF3612
SW9: Southwest - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BTA3047
WE9: West - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1983
NW9: Northwest - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX1288
NE9: Northeast - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BTA5740

Ernesto Alvarez 818262 wrote:
look out for company procedures aswell. youll see them every now and then, only way youll get that chart/procedure is from the company (unless a VA manages to share that with theyre pilots :lol: )

youll see those a lot out of orlando and a few others.


Actually, those aren't company procedures out of Orlando. MCO has their own departure gates as well (CAMDT, FMYDT, VALCA, etc.) in addition to a couple SIDs to the north (The RNAV SIDs are *still* not used as per NOTAM). They're referred to as "Departure Transition Areas" and are essentially pre-determined climb corridors due to the congested and complex Florida airspace.







Stephen is 100% correct se9 is a departure gate within the BHM tracon airspace their are Dep and Arr Gates

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:40 am
Posts: 190
Location: Davenport, IA
OK, so as far as the route I posted, SE9 VUZ155050 MGM SZW SSCOT1, I would not include SE9 in my flight plan? Would I file it as BHM3 VUZ155050 MGM SZW SSCOT1? Then, when flying it, if I had no ATC in BHM, would I simply intersect the 155 radial from VUZ and fly it until 50 dme from VUZ and then direct to MGM and so on?

Also, one more question. What does the "9" refer to that's attached to SE, NE, EA, WE, etc.?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:55 am
Posts: 250
Location: NC
I think the VUZ155050 is part of the ammended "shorthand" too. The Birmingham 3 Departure contains 19 VORs, of which MGM is one. All you need in your case, to leave Birmingham, is:

BHM3 MGM .....

In my case, I included VUZ because I wanted a VOR that is not on the BHM3 DP, but is on an J-route that runs from VUZ. They accepted my plan as filed (no ammendment readback, etc) but the changes were made in the background to the plan string.

Apparently this is what is happening with real-world flights, and the ammended plans are showing up on Flightaware. You don't use them, you refer back to your chosen DP as to what you file.

As Stephen and Kyle said, the "9" refers to 9 Departure gates out of Birmingham. Keep in mind that ATC sees a much more complex airspace than what a pilot sees on charts and plates. They can overlay all of it if needed. All this is supposed to be transparent to a pilot. In this case I think a little has snuck over and is causing confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:58 am
Posts: 131
Location: Anchorage, AK
I think "9" may mean aircraft will be leaving the airspace vertically opposed to laterally


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