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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:00 am
Posts: 152
Dear Pilots

Last Thuesday April 14th, there was the most sigificant change in airspacee structure ever in seen in Switzerland. The changes concern the airspace around Zurich Kloten airport (LSZH). In range of this changes, a COMPLETLY new system of SIDs and STARs was setup for Zurich Kloten. Swissfir will change completly to this new procedures next Saturday April 23th. Charts will be available until then on www.vacc-sag.org. Furthermore, there will be SID/STAR files available for PMDG, Feelthere and Level-D 767 quite soon.

There are also maps available with the new airspace structure
Als PDF: http://www.swissfir.org/movingmap/Airspace_LSZH.pdf
Als JPG: http://www.swissfir.org/movingmap/Airspace_LSZH.jpg

The jpg file is moving map capable (fsmmm120.zip on flightsim.com or avsim.com). The necessary INI file is available on:
http://www.swissfir.org/movingmap/Airspace_LSZH.ini

Further information about the changes can be found on: http://www.skyguide.ch/en/Dossiers/Dossier_DVO3/

We aks all pilots to change to this new procedures by April 23th.

Kind Regards
Raffael Walther
Director Swissfir


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:00 pm
Posts: 5
The last 2 days i am trying to find out an enroute map for LSAS, but nothing insight. :cry:

If anyone knows where i can find them, please tell me..

Thank you very much!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:55 am
Posts: 1753
Location: Germany
Hi Gregory,

unfortunately there are no free enroute-charts available on the internet, because the free service was stopped last year. What do you need such a chart for? Can we help you with a route? Maybe have a look here: www.vatroute.net

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Cheers, Andreas
Member of VATSIM Germany
VATSIM Supervisor

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:00 pm
Posts: 5
Hi Andreas and thanks for your fast reply!

I am used to look enroute maps before flying any route.

This time i decided to fly at switzerland because i have visited many times at winter (Montana, Gstaad, etc) and the swiss Alps are great.

In detail, i am interested in flying 2 routes.

The first route is LGAV-LSZH and back.

LGAV SID PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 BRD UL612 ANC UL982 FER UP131 RESIA Z51 KELIP STAR LSZH

I can find the KELIP Intersection for the arrival on the STAR chart of the airport, but i see that from milano FIR the entry point should be ABESI?

The second route i am interested in, is LGAV-LSGS and back, cause it offers an unusual IGS approach.

LGAV SID PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 BRD UL612 ANC UL982 SRN UL615 OMETO UM872 CERVI DCT LSGS

I cant find CERVI, and i dont see any "known" points in the approach plate, but i see that this route is wrong again, because the entry point should be ADISTO or AOSTA?

Its a little confusion without the "awareness" of an enroute map.. :)

I would be very happy if you could tell me the correct routes and if these are the entry points of genova FIR.

P.S=Downloaded and working your great sceneries!
P.S2=Sorry for my bad english.. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:55 am
Posts: 1753
Location: Germany
Hi Gregory,

are you sure that you have looked up the routes at www.vatroute.net? ;)

LGAV-LSZH
FL246-FL999
PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 BRD UL612 CHI UZ906 BZO UL12 KPT UL856 NEGRA

LGAV-LSGS does not exist yet at VATroute (but I will create it promptly), but you can use the following route (made from the routes LGAV-LSGG and LIRF-LSGS, also found at www.vatroute.net

LGAV-LSGS
FL246-FL999
PIKAD UL53 ENOXA UW920 VIE UL612 ANC UM730 URBAN UW95 TZO UL982 SRN UL615 AOSTA UZ637 BANKO DCT VALOR
REMARK: AFTER VALOR DCT SIO DCT MOT

LSGS/Sion does not have any STARs. As stated in the route's remarks you have to proceed BANKO VALOR SIO MOT. MOT VOR is the IAF where you enter the holding-procedure. Once established inbound to MOT VOR again, you can start your IGS approach procedure at the given altitudes and courses. Take special care with the scenery-limitations stated in the approach chart, that you can find at http://www.vacc-sag.org/airport/LSGS


Just out of curiosity: where did you find the routes that you would have liked to use?

EDIT: the routes LGAV-LSGS-LGAV are now available at www.vatroute.net

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Cheers, Andreas
Member of VATSIM Germany
VATSIM Supervisor

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:00 pm
Posts: 5
Thank you very much.. :P

No the initial flight plans was from this flight planner -> http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ Its a flight planner that 90% works good.

LGAV-LSZH fully understandable, with one exception..I should penetrate wien UIR via UL12, before entering zurich UIR via UL856, thats true?(it sounds little strange..)

LGAV-LSGS is not correct route at all. The exit point to Italy for aircraft departing from LGAV is TIGRA in our case.
So we have to fly the route PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 like the first flight plan, which is the "standard outgoing traffic pattern".

So only the ANC UM730 URBAN UW95 TZO UL982 SRN UL615 AOSTA UZ637 BANKO DCT VALOR seems to be healthy. :wink:

Got it about the LSGS approach, and thank you very much!!


So, to summarize some points.

Why we dont use for LGAV-LSZH the PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 CANNE DCT KELIP, and then fly the KELIP arrival?

And for LGAV-LGSG, the Flight Plan PIKAD UL53 KRK UL995 BRD UL612 ANC UM730 URBAN UW95 TZO UL982 SRN UL615 AOSTA UZ637 BANKO DCT VALOR

Now we observe all the restrictions for the entry-exit points, (TIGRA for exiting Greece, CANNE for entering LSZH via LIMM, and AOSTA for LSGS) and we dont have to cross Wien UIR, avoiding traffic confusions.

Just a thought... :wink:

(God thanx i had the italy enroute maps :lol: :lol: :lol: )


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:55 am
Posts: 1753
Location: Germany
Hi Gregory,

all flightplans in VATRoute are validated with CFMU/Eurcontrol once a month, so if CFMU agrees to the routing, I don't consider it to be a restriction. We don't want to insert multiple routings into our system, because if the shortest route is valid for CFMU/Eurcontrol it is good for real-world use (and that's where most of these routes come from, actually).

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Cheers, Andreas
Member of VATSIM Germany
VATSIM Supervisor

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:00 pm
Posts: 5
Ok got it!

Thanx!


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