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 Post subject: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 pm
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
Is flying an offset course to an airport and then carrying out a VOR/NAV approach a valid IFR procedure and is it acceptable to a controller.Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:24 am 
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What do you mean by offset course? What are you navigating by?

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 pm
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
GPS or VOR


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:35 am 
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For the most part, if you are going to shoot a VOR approach, then you'll want to either navigate the approach from the VOR or on the appropriate VOR course.. can you show me an example (chart-wise) of what you are trying to do? I'm still a little confused.

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:16 am 
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
No charts available. Enter the VOR frequency in the NAV1 box . Enter the Runway heading in the Course box on the auto-pilot.Fly the off-set then when the A/P picks up the Radial it turns the aircraft to the runway. The pilot controls the speed and descent.
Would this method be approved by ATC ,or not,if not why not, realistically this is still a controlled instrument procedure, Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:31 am 
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Location: Minimums
It's not a valid IFR procedure unless it's published on a chart.

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:37 am 
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Arthur Melton 1092578 wrote:
No charts available. Enter the VOR frequency in the NAV1 box . Enter the Runway heading in the Course box on the auto-pilot.Fly the off-set then when the A/P picks up the Radial it turns the aircraft to the runway. The pilot controls the speed and descent.
Would this method be approved by ATC ,or not,if not why not, realistically this is still a controlled instrument procedure, Thanks.


Alright, I see what you are trying to do now.

It's not an IFR approved procedure simply for the fact that there's not charted procedure. ATC may/may not deny it; I don't know. However, you should probably just get vectors to final.

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:51 am 
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
This method is good to use when there is not a controller on duty.Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:10 am 
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Assuming a VOR is on field of course. If you wanted to fly this method (not a procedure really) you'd be better off flying an actual VOR approach or if ATC is on requesting a visual or a contact approach, that way you can navigate with reference to terrain and freedom of lateral guidance.


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:15 pm
Posts: 462
Charts are what keep you safe. Otherwise you need to be visual. If you can see your surroundings than it will just be a visual approach. If you are in IMC the only way to get in is to fly something charted so you can get low enough and close enough to the airport to see it (no need to get into it here but just for all those that want to tell me I am wrong, yes I know about the contact approach but I feel this is beyond the skill level here and not needed to be mentioned).

Typically this is what your approach would be for. You could fly a single radial of a VOR but you could ony decend to the OROCA (off route obstacle clearance altitude) which would be pretty high but safe. Again though you would need the an enroute chart to tell you what the area's OROCA is, or have ATC services which could get you down to their MIA or MVA. Another option that could be done rather than an approach would be to track a routed radial to the VOR with a published MEA. This would most likely get you much lower than the OROCA as it is more precise, but yet again you need the chart to tell you what the route is, the radial, the MEA, etc.

I guess the point I am making is that if you cannot proceed visually, what is keeping you safe from smacking the ground, trees, buildings, etc. Charts with published minimum altitudes or ATC with minimum altitudes are the only way to do that with 100% certainty that you won't hit anything (if flown correctly) until you can proceed visually. With multimillion dollar equipment and lives at stake anything less than 100% certainty is not acceptable (going the rw route here).

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 pm
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
Thanks Guy's., I would have thought that a straight in approach ,as can be done with this VOR/NAV method is safer than the normal VOR approach with it's reciprocal turns especially in near minim's conditions .The proximity warning can also be employed for altitude restictions . Also can a PIC select the approach he requires.Art


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Although come to think of it random tracks to the airport VOR are also covered by a charted procedure http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/SSYDG01-117.pdf so it is possible but someone from out there would have to clear that up.


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
Thanks Jason, That chart would be ideal for a VOR/NAV offset approach beginning at 40 miles and 8000 feet.Art


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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Jason Baxter 920557 wrote:
Although come to think of it random tracks to the airport VOR are also covered by a charted procedure http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/SSYDG01-117.pdf so it is possible but someone from out there would have to clear that up.

The main purpose of these 'arrivals' are to ensure positive clearance from any terrain and also keep the aircraft above any control steps which may be encountered along the track. All of them will terminate in a circling to land procedure, hence your going have to join the circuit at the aerodrome and do a visual approach.

You will notice there is no straight in minina, so just because you happen to be tracking straight in on the 335 inbound to SY, doesn't mean just because 16R is straight infront of you, you're allowed to make a VSA... You will have to overfly and join a circuit leg such as crosswind.

These procedures are very rarely used at large airports such as Sydney, Melbourne (unless for currency obligations??) but more the likes of Albury and Launceston where procedural towers will use them to make sure all aircraft stay above steps and have terrain clearance, alot easier than to keep issuing descent every 10DME once they are past a certain step.

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 Post subject: Re: VOR/NAV
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 331
Location: Wyndham Vale, Australia
Thanks for that James, Would that apply to both IFR and VFR. Regards,Art


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