Chad Vienna 1195499 Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:22 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:22 AM On a recent IFR flight to KOPF. Upon being cleared for the Visual Approach the CTR controller informed me something to the effect that radar services are terminated and to report cancellation of my flightplan.. (I believe on the ground; I'm not sure of the the exact verbiage). Upon landing I requested taxi to my FBO and was informed by CTR that KOPF tower was closed and I could taxi at my discretion. While taxiing to my ramp I noticed a Beech Duke sitting at one of the FBO's. After reaching my ramp and shutting down the engines; I decided to wait and watch the Duke taxi and depart (giving me a chance to check vpilots model matching). A minute or two later I heard the Duke pilot call for departure clearance. The controller informed the Duke that he couldn't clear him; as a aircraft had recently landed and hadn't closed his flightplan. I immediately realized that I was the offending aircraft and closed my flightplan on frequency (My apologies to the Duke pilot). I do have a copy of the A/FD as well as make regular use of AIRNAV. According to AIRNAV; KOPF Tower is attended continuously. Why am I bringing this up.. A couple years ago I was on a VFR flight to KCRQ; As it was was well after 22:00 and I know that KCRQ is unattended after 22:00 I proceeded to land. While taxiing to the ramp a controller (CTR or APP) contacted me about my not having contacted him for landing clearance. I was informed that ZLA policy considers all towered airports in the ARTCC to be attended if it falls within a active controller's airspace. So for VATSIM how do I know whether a towered airport is attended or not? PS I've worked with the ZLA controller many times since the above situation; and he's top notch. I've also worked with the ZMA controller a few times now, and he's one of the best that I've heard. _________________ Chad Vienna - KCRQ ZLA Pilot Cert I-09 "The important thing in aeroplanes is that they shall be speedy." — Baron Manfred Von Richthofen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Grafelman Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:37 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:37 AM (edited) According to AIRNAV; KOPF Tower is attended continuously. Not sure what AirNav means by "Attendance" in their Airport Operations section. I agree, it does say "CONTINUOUS"... but glance down at the frequencies listed for the cab (tower and ground) and you'll see that they are only open between 0700 and 2300, so the cab itself doesn't appear to be open 24/7. A couple years ago I was on a VFR flight to KCRQ; As it was was well after 22:00 and I know that KCRQ is unattended after 22:00 I proceeded to land. While taxiing to the ramp a controller (CTR or APP) contacted me about my not having contacted him for landing clearance. I was informed that ZLA policy considers all towered airports in the ARTCC to be attended if it falls within a active controller's airspace. Was it me? For ZLA, I've heard mixed answers, and I can't remember what the latest one was. The training materials very loosely allude to the fact that towers can indeed be considered closed. But at the same time, I can understand where that thought came from; VATSIM tends to quickly abandon realism in favor of letting a pilot do whatever (s)he deems "fun." Don't like the indefinite ceiling and < 1 SM visibility? No problem! Just set your sim's weather to clear weather and ask for that VFR departure (and how dare a controller suggest that you can't do so realistically). In the same vein, who's to say that you're simulating a realistic clock rather than 12 noon (meaning the tower would be open despite it actually being 3 o'clock in the morning)? So for VATSIM how do I know whether a towered airport is attended or not? Good question. Ahead of time? You can probably ask. Otherwise, just see how the controller deals with you. If you get a "change to advisory frequency approved", that's a pretty good indication that, for whatever reason, the controller is considering the airport unattended (as far as ATC services go). Edited May 28, 2015 at 03:22 AM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Glottmann Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:46 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 02:46 AM (edited) Hey Chad, Being the center guy during that I'll try to explain... Opa Locka's Tower/Ground only run through these hours in the real world: OPA LOCKA GROUND: 120.025 [0700-2300]OPA LOCKA TOWER: 134.675 [0700-2300] Continuous attendance is something completely different than a closed tower. On Airnav, you're best bet is looking for the Tower frequency or whatever is appropriate (i.e. use of another approach frequency during XXXX and YYYY). In ZMA, we close cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers (usually) once they close in the real world, or under extremely heavy traffic loads... On VATSIM, you'll probably be able to tell if the approach controller doesn't clear you to land and tells you to report IFR cancellation at some point...or gives you a void clearance/hold for release as a departing aircraft. If you have any doubts to that however, just ask! Hope this covers what you were asking. Edited May 28, 2015 at 03:35 AM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:05 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:05 AM (edited) what they mean by continuously attended is that when the tower closes and it switches, youll have an airport attendant giving you advisory services. same thing that happens at KTMB and other airports here, the good thing about KTMB, since we have the Miami FSS on the field, they are the ones attending the radio after the tower closes, basically Unicom. keep in mind they arent ATC, so all they can provide is advisory. edit: received clarification about the continuous attendance, it is indeed ops based, not based on having an operator available for advisories. what i mentioned is specific to fields that have an FSS on location Edited May 28, 2015 at 06:43 PM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Don Desfosse Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:16 AM Board of Governors Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:16 AM Josh hit the nail on the head. I had already formulated my reply while reading down the thread, and then got to Josh's reply. Just to amplify one thing, though -- the "Continuous" is listed Under Airport Operations - Attendance. That does NOT mean ATC attendance. It likely means there's at least one airport ops person on duty on premises at all times. Makes sense, must be a busy enough place, seeing as all of their FBOs are open 24/7. Most ARTCCs simulate airport closures per RW FAA facility hours. Unfortunate that ZLA does not. Agree also with the previous suggestions/tips. Don Desfosse Vice President, Operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Glottmann Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:24 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:24 AM Sadly we can't simulate the beauties of a UNICOM with advisories Ernesto ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:34 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:34 AM some day! i could think of a few positives, especially voice unicom for those that dont like to text. and its being monitored so trolls can be handled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Glottmann Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:36 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:36 AM If we had text to speech and vice versa...then all the text-only pilots could deal with it too. Who'm I kidding, too complicated ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Vienna 1195499 Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:52 AM Author Posted May 28, 2015 at 03:52 AM Thanks for the clarification and guidance guys! As for the ZLA controller: A couple years ago I was on a VFR flight to KCRQ; As it was was well after 22:00 and I know that KCRQ is unattended after 22:00 I proceeded to land. While taxiing to the ramp a controller (CTR or APP) contacted me about my not having contacted him for landing clearance. I was informed that ZLA policy considers all towered airports in the ARTCC to be attended if it falls within a active controller's airspace. Was it me? I said "he's top notch" Brad Though come to think of it; I think it was you. Thanks Josh, Flying in SE Florida is a learning experience; It's taking me a little time getting used to crossing the shoreline heading in a westerly direction.. _________________ Chad Vienna - KCRQ ZLA Pilot Cert I-09 "The important thing in aeroplanes is that they shall be speedy." — Baron Manfred Von Richthofen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Bambach 1008842 Posted May 28, 2015 at 04:03 AM Posted May 28, 2015 at 04:03 AM And just to clarify it further for you Chad, if the above wasn't enough, ZMA policy is radar controller discretion as to whether or not to treat a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field as towered. It can be dependent on r/w world TWR closings as well as the level of traffic the controller may be working at the time. That is to say that at times you "may" get TWR services from one of our radar guys after r/w closure, or you may not get TWR services during r/w open time. Again, it's radar controller discretion. Short of asking ahead of time if a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D is open or closed relative to TWR, when you hear those magic words "radar services terminated, freq change approved, report IFR cancellation in the air or on the ground this freq", you'll know the answer. And Josh was correct in holding the other arrival as you had indicated per the IFR "One in / One out" rule for non-towered fields. Ken Bambach ZMA ATM VATSIM Supervisor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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