Choosing An Arrival

[Daniel Smith 1408194]

Hey, I'm making this post today in hope of getting some insight into how I should pick my arrivals, what I should look for etc. I've been having a lot of trouble with picking arrivals that are either for some other purposes (for example I was told LIPGO1R into Dublin was for "Fuel Planning Only", not entirely sure what that means) or they're just wrong for some other reason.

 

I have Aivlasoft EFB and Navigraph Charts which helps a bit, but not really. It tells me the STARs available, but not what one I should really be using. I understand this is a pretty big topic, and I feel that I understand a bit but not up to an acceptable level (at least to satisfy myself).

 

Thanks.

[Joshua Black]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe all arrivals in Europe are ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned, and not normally included in the flightplan...?

 

None the less, I took a quick peek at the LIPGO arrivals into EIDW. From that alone, I think you are forgetting to read the notes on the side. Each arrival is runway dependant, and which one you fly will depend on the landing runway in use with the exception on 1R and 1Z which are both for runway 10. I’m not a controller there, nor am I familiar with their procedures, but my GUESS would be each has their own purpose based on traffic density for example as opposed to runway in use... or like your friend said, some sort of fuel related purpose.

[Trent Hopkinson]

The idea is you can plug that arrival route in (Based on the ATIS/METAR landing runway in use).

But you will likely get changes done by ATC (Usually vectors to the ILS approach intercept)

[Johnny Coughlan]

Hi Daniel,

 

As an Irish controller on VATSIM I'll try answer your question best I can;

 

Dublin uses the 'point merge' system for all arrivals irregardless of the approach in use (ILS/VOR/LOC Only)

 

Point merge explination video(From Norways point of view but still the same theory in Dublin).

 

The difference beetween the R and Z arrivals for runway 10 for example is to quote an IRL ATC...

The airlines requested a shorter STAR than the ROMEO so they could carry less fuel when it's quiet (note still enough legally required for the flight before anyone asks) as they won't fly the full star when it's quiet and barely get to BABON(Hold) and ADNAL(hold) before a direct RISAP is issued.

 

The 1Z is the compromise, it's ONLY there for fuel planning by airline OPS. It will be in the flight plan but Dublin ATC on first contact will issue a 1R arrival(Runway 10) on first contact. This allows us the extra portions of the star IF required.

 

It was hard for both ATCO and pilot to understand when it was brought it but thankfully now we have both got used to it and understand the reasons.

 

On VATSIM we don't use the short STARS at all so when you're looking at the charts expect the longest one BUT you will RARELY fly the FULL arrival as with the point merge system you'll be given direct the IF(Initial FIX) RISAP(Runway 10) on the squencing arc as soon as possible.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Please don't mix flightplanning, ATC flight plans and ATC clearances.

 

You file a flight plan with a route. Some countries require you to file SIDs and/or STARs. Here on VATSIM this is not that important as ATC cannot expect pilots to know all regional or national AIP-details. If you're aware of special rules, great! If not, who cares! Should you get some heat from ATC about this, call a SUP for help or report it to the VACC in question.

 

Now, flightplanning is a completely different thing: you will calculate your required fuel as good as possible and this means that you should include an expected SID and STAR in this process - otherwise you may end up with too little fuel.

 

When you are finally on your way, you can already insert the STAR and approach that you expect after checking the latest weather at your DEST. But you will need to be prepared to change this as ATC may clear you for something different.

 

This is how we do it in the real world.

[Daniel Smith 1408194]

First of all wanna thank everybody for their replies, helps a bunch! I also realised this morning what he meant by "Fuel Planning Purposes Only", I was rather tired making this post so I probably wasn't thinking very much about what I was typing!

 

Hi Daniel,

 

As an Irish controller on VATSIM I'll try answer your question best I can;

 

Dublin uses the 'point merge' system for all arrivals irregardless of the approach in use (ILS/VOR/LOC Only)

 

Point merge explination video(From Norways point of view but still the same theory in Dublin).

 

The difference beetween the R and Z arrivals for runway 10 for example is to quote an IRL ATC...

The airlines requested a shorter STAR than the ROMEO so they could carry less fuel when it's quiet (note still enough legally required for the flight before anyone asks) as they won't fly the full star when it's quiet and barely get to BABON(Hold) and ADNAL(hold) before a direct RISAP is issued.

 

The 1Z is the compromise, it's ONLY there for fuel planning by airline OPS. It will be in the flight plan but Dublin ATC on first contact will issue a 1R arrival(Runway 10) on first contact. This allows us the extra portions of the star IF required.

 

It was hard for both ATCO and pilot to understand when it was brought it but thankfully now we have both got used to it and understand the reasons.

 

On VATSIM we don't use the short STARS at all so when you're looking at the charts expect the longest one BUT you will RARELY fly the FULL arrival as with the point merge system you'll be given direct the IF(Initial FIX) RISAP(Runway 10) on the squencing arc as soon as possible.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks for the information, very much appreciated and I'll be sure to take it all in! I did notice the point you made about being given a direct, as last night when I flew an arrival into Dublin I was given direct to OSLEX (just before RISAP). Also I think you were the controller helping me out last night, so I once again want to say I very much appreciate the support you provided!

 

Please don't mix flightplanning, ATC flight plans and ATC clearances.

 

You file a flight plan with a route. Some countries require you to file SIDs and/or STARs. Here on VATSIM this is not that important as ATC cannot expect pilots to know all regional or national AIP-details. If you're aware of special rules, great! If not, who cares! Should you get some heat from ATC about this, call a SUP for help or report it to the VACC in question.

 

Now, flightplanning is a completely different thing: you will calculate your required fuel as good as possible and this means that you should include an expected SID and STAR in this process - otherwise you may end up with too little fuel.

 

When you are finally on your way, you can already insert the STAR and approach that you expect after checking the latest weather at your DEST. But you will need to be prepared to change this as ATC may clear you for something different.

 

This is how we do it in the real world.

 

Usually I don't include a STAR in my FP, but the problem I'm having is I tend to get quite concerned that I'm going to be put into a situation where I have selected maybe the wrong arrival and my T/D is before their airspace (either CTR or APP) and when I make contact I'm told to change my arrival, and that situation is a bit awkward considering I'm already descending for the arrival, or even sometimes on it.

 

Sometimes I contact either the CTR or APP controller before my T/D (without a programmed arrival) to try and get an idea of what I'll be flying, but at that point I'm told I'm too far out and I should call back in later, which puts me in (once again) a bit of an awkward situation.

 

Thanks.

[Dace Nicmane]

This is the limitation of VATSIM, there isn't always Center online to clear you for your STAR. Just check the ATIS and make your best guess, some add-ons may give you headache when trying to change STARs, you can always request vectors.

[Andreas Fuchs]

This is the compromise that we have to go for, at times. When the weather is straight forward you won't do much wrong with your selected STAR and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated descent planning. Just do your best at determining your arrival and approach. Should you be arriving from inactive airspace there's nothing wrong in giving a short call to APP re the STAR.

 

With experience you'll get the hang of this, don't worry. There's nothing to be ashamed for when choosing a different STAR.

[Daniel Smith 1408194]

This is the limitation of VATSIM, there isn't always Center online to clear you for your STAR. Just check the ATIS and make your best guess, some add-ons may give you headache when trying to change STARs, you can always request vectors.

This is the compromise that we have to go for, at times. When the weather is straight forward you won't do much wrong with your selected STAR and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated descent planning. Just do your best at determining your arrival and approach. Should you be arriving from inactive airspace there's nothing wrong in giving a short call to APP re the STAR.

 

With experience you'll get the hang of this, don't worry. There's nothing to be ashamed for when choosing a different STAR.

Yeah thanks guys, I just like to be as little of a nuisance for controllers as possible as I understand at times they can be under quite high workloads and at the end of the day we're here to enjoy the network and have fun so I don't wanna upset somebody by pestering them about what STAR I should be flying, diverting their attention from what they should really be focusing on.

 

I really appreciate the replies though, they have definitely helped!