How to deal with incompetent pilots

[Tom Dowd]

Here's my 5 step guide:

 

[Zain Khan]

Some good advice for the newer controllers here, and I can say it's good, despite myself sometimes going outside ATC jurisdictions to help in the past.

 

So basically rejecting clearances to fly is not a breach of VATSIM CoC and CoR?

[Tom Dowd]

Correct Zain

[nebojsa milosavljevic]

Good video.

 

nebojsa

[Kenneth Haught]

Some very good tips. I would however caution against denying a clearance unless you are saturated with traffic. You may consider me a "power hungry supervisor", however there are actually two rules which could be considered to be broken by a controller withholding clearance because of a perceived pilot inability to fly "correctly". The first is Code of Conduct section A10 which states

Since this is a learning environment, there are times when a pilot may encounter a new air traffic controller who is in the process of learning his airspace and/or general air traffic control procedures. The same may be true of the controller who may find himself issuing ATC to a pilot flying online for the first time. Everyone should remember to exercise patience and courtesy to these new pilots and controllers.

 

The second is found in the very article in the Code of Regulations you quoted in your video, just a couple lines down. That is Article 6.03©, which states

The use of the VATSIM.net network by any member or individual to engage in any

action or conduct which blocks, interferes with or otherwise prevents any other

member(s) of VATSIM.net or individuals from logging on to and/or enjoying the

VATSIM.net network. This rule does not apply to Administrators, Supervisors or other

individuals specifically designated by the VATSIM.net Board of Governors or this

Code of Regulations who are acting within the scope of their authority;

 

So while you're correct that you can, and should, handle other traffic that is appropriately filed, and who are in more critical stages of flight than requesting clearance, If you've got a whole buncha free time I'd strongly recommend chatting with the pilot via PM to see if you can help them figure out a workable route. I'd go so far as to say that even if you can get them a mostly navaid-navaid route, it should be permitted even if it's not technically "local policy".

 

If you're busy, of course it often is better to keep them on the ground while they resolve the problem, this is also a great time to raise a supervisor yourself so that we can have a chat with them and offer informational sites where they can find a better route, or learn the correct procedures (or you can do the same via private message!). Be prepared when a supervisor responds though to articulate why what the pilot is requesting isn't possible, and help us help them with finding local procedures, charts, etc.

[nebojsa milosavljevic]

As a pilot and not ATC ,i understand the frustrations sometimes that both pilots and atc face.I have helped fellow pilot's via private chat to start flying .

I remember the old day's when i started,i would find a busy atc center park my self and just listen.You can learn a lot.

People don't want to take time to read manual's and learn.I don't know about atc, but pilots can fly off line to learn a few basics before coming online. Unfortunately some of us don't have patience and it does come up online.

 

Nebojsa

[Mats Edvin Aaro]

I second Kenneth’s post!

 

I just want to add: if you’re overloaded with traffic and there is someone who clearly has NO clue, there’s nothing wrong with pinging a supervisor for [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance. We’re not there just to ‘ban’ people, we are actually there mostly to help. Of course it depends on the supervisor’s workload, but know that we’re there and can help!

[Dean Kinch 1298310]

I second Kenneth’s post!

 

I just want to add: if you’re overloaded with traffic and there is someone who clearly has NO clue, there’s nothing wrong with pinging a supervisor for [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance. We’re not there just to ‘ban’ people, we are actually there mostly to help. Of course it depends on the supervisor’s workload, but know that we’re there and can help!

 

To further this, as in real world. Controllers are there to vector pilots and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist to their flight when required. Simply fogging off a pilot is certainly the wrong attitude. As in real world, you should help him/her in anyway you can. Teach yourself to engage with 'difficult' individuals by teaching/helping them.

Iv heard this sort of problem so many times. Vatsim controlling does not relate to real world at all and we should really be doing something to help change that. After all, we are all here to replicate real world right?

 

Help yourself by helping others, goes both ways. Pilots to controllers and controllers to pilots.

However, to twist this. Again as in real world. If a fully loaded controller encounters a 'difficult' pilot. Ask, yourself what would they do. If its busy and full airspace. They would likely turn them around and decline their presence. So if you're not overloaded, certainly try your best to help each other.

[Mike Lehkamp]

Here's my 5 step guide:

 

 

Nice and intuitive video. Now make one for pilots who deal with incompetent controllers.

[Tom Dowd]

Here's my 5 step guide:

 

 

Nice and intuitive video. Now make one for pilots who deal with incompetent controllers.

 

The only option we have i'm afraid is to vote with our disconnect buttons

[Steven Perry]

Here's my 5 step guide:

 

 

Nice and intuitive video. Now make one for pilots who deal with incompetent controllers.

 

The only option we have i'm afraid is to vote with our disconnect buttons

 

Not true! You could provide feedback to the facility. Or you can tactfully provide feedback directly to the controller.

 

20+ years later, I still distinctly remember being coached by pilots when I gave 90° localizer intercepts, squawk codes with 8s and 9s in them (before auto [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned codes), and vectored someone into a mountain when I tried controlling away from my home area in the Great Plains. The 5 minutes of extra effort they made yielded decades of much better controlling for themselves and thousands of other pilots. Thank goodness they did not "vote with their disconnect buttons".

[Andreas Fuchs]

This video is full of errors and borderline-insults. Best if all ignore the video.

[Mike Sweeney]

Agree Andreas and Kenneth.

 

New members, or with little experience or knowledge, can introduce challenges/cause frustration, and the role of ATC is not flight instruction

... but a less adversarial approach would be constructive, and include some ATC-pilot teamwork.

 

e.g. a request for progressive taxi does not automatically mean that the pilot has not 'bothered to obtain an airport ground chart.'

The request enables a controller to ensure a smooth (and accurate) flow of ground traffic.

A punitive response from ATC, or no response ... not how it works.

[Andreas Fuchs]

....and you cannot deny a flight/flightplan. If you encounter an interesting flightplan route, such as "GPS DCT", then ATC can still instruct headings or other means of directional control until such pilot has left the airspace. As a first step, however, it would be more appropriate if an ATCO could possibly point pilots with special flightplans to resources like "vroute" or "simbrief" or even provide them with a realistic route and ask if they would agree to use it. I do it on a regular basis and pilots gladly accept those plans, unless their AIRACs arer from 1995

[Tom Dowd]

....and you cannot deny a flight/flightplan. If you encounter an interesting flightplan route, such as "GPS DCT", then ATC can still instruct headings or other means of directional control until such pilot has left the airspace. As a first step, however, it would be more appropriate if an ATCO could possibly point pilots with special flightplans to resources like "vroute" or "simbrief" or even provide them with a realistic route and ask if they would agree to use it. I do it on a regular basis and pilots gladly accept those plans, unless their AIRACs arer from 1995

 

How about: no

[Steven Perry]

New video idea: How to deal with irascible controllers!

 

Seriously, you cannot deny a flight. http://www.vatsim.net/coc/ and read paragraphs A1 and A10.

[Tristan Garratt]

Stephen, Flights should be able to be denied, in events that are slotted, and where traffic is too much where an aircraft will interfere, i.e VFR.

[Tom Dowd]

Stephen, Flights should be able to be denied, in events that are slotted, and where traffic is too much where an aircraft will interfere, i.e VFR.

 

Denying clearance to an invalid flight plan is exactly what a real controller would do

[Robert Shearman Jr]

And you're not a real controller, are you?

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Tom,

 

compared to me you rather seem to be a newbie-pilot with VATSIM (you joined on Christmas Day 2013, I joined "a few months" earlier ). So, please just accept our rules: per definition there are no "invalid flightplans" at VATSIM.

 

Yes, I do prefer realistic flightplans, too. And, yes, I do not like pilots filing flightplans that have something like "GPS DCT" as route or "Boeing 737-800NG" as type of aircraft. How to work on the routes I have explained in my previous post. For the type of aircraft I normally correct it myself and then let the pilot know that it was wrong, what the correct code is AND where it can be found for future flights. Takes a few seconds on private chat. This is called service.

 

Oh, btw., Tom, you keep filing your flightplans incorrectly: your type of aircraft is consistently missing the type of navigation capability. For most of the planes that you have been using in recent months it should be an /L (/L RNAV capability with Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) with en route and terminal capability, and with RVSM).

Luckily most other pilots do file their plans correctly with the correct code. If not, us ATCOs need to add it manually, otherwise you do not show up correctly on our ground radar displays. I gladly do it, it is a service.

[Tom Dowd]

Ommitting the equipment code isnt the same as ommitting the whole route...

[Steven Perry]

Stephen, Flights should be able to be denied, in events that are slotted, and where traffic is too much where an aircraft will interfere, i.e VFR.

 

Denying clearance to an invalid flight plan is exactly what a real controller would do

 

Nope. They work with the real pilots to make it work. I’ve filed a wrong altitude and, instead of yelling at me or trying to embarr[Mod - Happy Thoughts] me or even just flat ignoring me, the kind and professional controller asked if I wanted a thousand above or a thousand below. I’ve also spent hours trying to flightplan a way for my Piper to traverse the Boston-Washington corridor only to have the first controller I spoke to give me a brand new routing with only the origin and the destination being the same.

 

Even if the pilot is a danger to himself and others, the controllers duty is to provide for the safe orderly and expeditious flow of traffic... not to be a cop.

 

https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/accident-reports/hes-a-terror-in-a-twin/

[Andreas Fuchs]

Tom, the hole you are digging is getting deeper and deeper!

[Steve Galasso]

Stephen, Flights should be able to be denied, in events that are slotted, and where traffic is too much where an aircraft will interfere, i.e VFR.

 

Denying clearance to an invalid flight plan is exactly what a real controller would do

 

No, it isn't.

[Lindsey Wiebe 1101951]

Stephen, Flights should be able to be denied, in events that are slotted, and where traffic is too much where an aircraft will interfere, i.e VFR.

 

Denying clearance to an invalid flight plan is exactly what a real controller would do

 

No, it isn't.

 

Technically they would, HOWEVER, they would also ask you "advise ready to copy revised clearance" and then give you what they want you to do.

 

It boils down to there are WAY more controllers in real life, so in busy airspace on Vatsim the workload is much higher. Real life they would break sectors down and put more controllers on, this isn't always possible here. In Real Life if a pilot was really "not getting it" they'd give him or her the dreaded "call tower at phone #..." and then a SUP would deal with them. So maybe controllers (I'm not a controller here or real life) should/could use the Sup more for situations such as this.