Females on Vatsim

[Craig Watt 1438402]

Hi Guys, I hope you are all well.

 

I often fly on vatsim and as part of when I am flying my wife would watch and listen to the radio exchanges. She Loves it and also quite skill-full !!! I have set flights for her on the sim using global traffic (not online). I asked her would she not try vatsim even as a controller. She explained to me that she would love to but due to the lack of female voices she wouldnt be confident enough.

 

It just posed a thought to me, as a community should we be trying to encourange women more into fligh tsimming online? There are thousands of female pilots in the real world, so it would add an extra bit of realism to already what is an amazing platform.

 

I know my wife will eventually sign up and she will be welcomed and encouraged like we all where when we started.

 

I think possibly one time I head a female on vatsim. Maybe there are more online than I know.

 

Thanks for reading

 

Craig Watt

[Don Desfosse]

There are a few, and we certainly welcome more! She should give it a go!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Earlier this week I had a female ATCO on a flight in China. In Germany we have a young lady who controls at and around EDDL several times a week.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Earlier this week I had a female ATCO on a flight in China. In Germany we have a young lady who controls at and around EDDL several times a week.

 

Careful now.. we may wake up Auntie Ruth!

 

BL.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Yes, where's Ruth, what has happened to her? She disappeared from one day to another.

[Sean Harrison]

Maybe we should identify black, asians, Irish, scots, gays, lesbians, transgender, Where does it stop!

 

I thought it was illegal to discriminate? Especially based on sex.

[Nestor Perez]

I'll sit here Sean, watching you create all the threads for the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ifications you mentioned.

 

Please let me know once you're done so I can join on each and every one of them.

 

Best regards,

[Liesel Downes]

It's obviously going to be difficult for people who don't fit into the norm of who a flight simmer usually is. As someone who is a woman, and a transsexual one at that who is still transitioning, the overly-masculine culture around this can absolutely make it harder to feel like I belong here. I think there are two things off the top of my head that could make it better:

 

* We should stop defaulting to he/him pronouns when talking generally about users of this platform. Not only is this inclusive, but it is common sense to use they/them when generalising. For example, "he called the controller" and "his callsign" in training docomeents when specifying a gender isn't required.

* The culture of getting overly excited about hearing a woman on frequency should stop. I realise this is because of how rare it is, but it's not welcoming at all to be treated as a spectacle.

 

edit: added example

[Sean Harrison]

Nestor, I think you took my post the wrong way.

 

As per above, why do we have to single anyone out or add to the division?

[Simon Kelsey]

Nestor, I think you took my post the wrong way.

 

As per above, why do we have to single anyone out or add to the division?

 

I'm not quite sure I follow your point, so perhaps you could elaborate.

 

Who is being 'singled out'? What 'division' are you referring to?

 

Would you say that females are well represented as a proportion of the VATSIM membership?

[Jeremy Peterson]

It's obviously going to be difficult for people who don't fit into the norm of who a flight simmer usually is. As someone who is a woman, and a transsexual one at that who is still transitioning, the overly-masculine culture around this can absolutely make it harder to feel like I belong here. I think there are two things off the top of my head that could make it better:

 

* We should stop defaulting to he/him pronouns when talking generally about users of this platform. Not only is this inclusive, but it is common sense to use they/them when generalising. For example, "he called the controller" and "his callsign" in training docomeents when specifying a gender isn't required.

* The culture of getting overly excited about hearing a woman on frequency should stop. I realise this is because of how rare it is, but it's not welcoming at all to be treated as a spectacle.

 

edit: added example

 

+1

[Simon Kelsey]

To add some more thoughts to this now I have a little more time to sit down and write...

 

Firstly -- I don't for a moment want to sound as though I am criticising the OP, Craig, who raises a very important point. The more diversity we have in our hobby the better -- VATSIM as a whole is better when there are more active members flying and providing ATC services and from that point of view alone it would be silly for the organisation not to be aiming to appeal to 50% of the population who are currently significantly under-represented in our hobby.

 

However, I'm not sure that citing 'realism' as a reason is particularly helpful to that cause! There are many very good reasons why we should be encouraging more girls and women to get involved in the hobby of flight simulation and in VATSIM in particular:

 

Because VATSIM as a whole is a better place when there are more of us.

 

Because diversity of thought and background and input is something which benefits us as an organisation and as a community.

 

Because there are many accomplished female pilots and air traffic controllers who could bring their experience and knowledge to the network and help us all learn something.

 

Because in a world where we are trying to encourage more women to consider a career in STEM subjects such as aviation, air traffic control, engineering etc, just as the experience of being a VATSIM member has encouraged many young men to take up careers in these fields so it would be wonderful if we could play our part to inspire more girls and women to do the same.

 

These are just a few good reasons. However, 'to make it more realistic' implies that the reason we need more women involved is not because it would be a good thing for them, but in order to satiate the desire of men to have a more realistic experience by hearing a female voice!

 

As I said earlier -- I know that Craig did not mean any harm by his post and his heart is very clearly genuinely in the right place, but I do think it goes to prove how much of a challenge we have as a society (way beyond VATSIM) to overcome the way in which women are viewed, talked about and valued, and if we want to change things within our hobby, within VATSIM and in the world at large then we do have to think ever so carefully about the language we use.

 

Liesel also raises some extremely important points about the way in which female pilots and controllers are often treated on the network, and I know that historically this has also been the case when women have raised their heads on flight sim forums in the past. Inappropriate comments, private messages and all the rest of it. Thankfully I think this is slowly starting to change, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

[Richard Quigley]

Yes, where's Ruth, what has happened to her? She disappeared from one day to another.

I think FSE (Flight Sim Economy) is keeping her busy. If this is indeed the same Ruth (and I think it is.)

[Robert Shearman Jr]

IThe culture of getting overly excited about hearing a woman on frequency should stop. I realise this is because of how rare it is, but it's not welcoming at all to be treated as a spectacle.

I'm guilty of this from my first months on VATSIM (it's probably even possible to find a thread from 9 years ago on this very forum, similar to this one, where I said roughly the same thing as this original poster). Given a few more years' perspective I certainly understand Liesel's point of view here. The more we gasp and awe over every member with an uncommon defining characteristic, the less comfortable they're likely to feel in our community.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Simon -- wow -- you're the grand prize winner of the forum for today. Brilliantly said on all counts, sir.

[Liesel Downes]

This got a bit more heated than I expected, but anyway lol

 

Simon you're absolutely correct.

 

Thankfully I think this is slowly starting to change, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

 

I agree, and I'm really thankful for the positive experiences I've had here even though I'm definitely a lot more out of the ordinary

[Dace Nicmane]

It's obviously going to be difficult for people who don't fit into the norm of who a flight simmer usually is. As someone who is a woman, and a transsexual one at that who is still transitioning, the overly-masculine culture around this can absolutely make it harder to feel like I belong here. I think there are two things off the top of my head that could make it better:

 

* We should stop defaulting to he/him pronouns when talking generally about users of this platform. Not only is this inclusive, but it is common sense to use they/them when generalising. For example, "he called the controller" and "his callsign" in training docomeents when specifying a gender isn't required.

* The culture of getting overly excited about hearing a woman on frequency should stop. I realise this is because of how rare it is, but it's not welcoming at all to be treated as a spectacle.

I'll add to this, please stop calling everyone 'sir'. It's super confusing and unwelcoming when addressed to a female.

 

Perhaps the new codec lets people hear better who it is calling them. But I also think it's a mentality "there are no females on VATSIM, so it must be a little boy".

 

I'm not holding my breath about the number of females growing on the network. I think we'll continue to be a tiny minority, even though we have a pilot and a controller here and there to show that "we have females". That's just the way it is, whatever the reasons.

[Liesel Downes]

I think calling people sir is weird but still fine, however I still don’t exactly have the confidence to correct someone on the network (especially considering my voice isn’t the best still) and have it actually mean anything

[Brad Littlejohn]

It's obviously going to be difficult for people who don't fit into the norm of who a flight simmer usually is. As someone who is a woman, and a transsexual one at that who is still transitioning, the overly-masculine culture around this can absolutely make it harder to feel like I belong here. I think there are two things off the top of my head that could make it better:

 

* We should stop defaulting to he/him pronouns when talking generally about users of this platform. Not only is this inclusive, but it is common sense to use they/them when generalising. For example, "he called the controller" and "his callsign" in training docomeents when specifying a gender isn't required.

* The culture of getting overly excited about hearing a woman on frequency should stop. I realise this is because of how rare it is, but it's not welcoming at all to be treated as a spectacle.

I'll add to this, please stop calling everyone 'sir'. It's super confusing and unwelcoming when addressed to a female.

 

Perhaps the new codec lets people hear better who it is calling them. But I also think it's a mentality "there are no females on VATSIM, so it must be a little boy".

 

I'm not holding my breath about the number of females growing on the network. I think we'll continue to be a tiny minority, even though we have a pilot and a controller here and there to show that "we have females". That's just the way it is, whatever the reasons.

 

 

True story. I was at my other office (read: the parking area parallel to 26L/26R at KLAS, listening to ATC and watching all arrivals and departures) in 2002, when the following conversation took place:

 

TWR (male voice): United 937, wind 220 at 14, runway 25R, Cleared for takeoff.

Pilot: 26R Cleared for takeoff United 937.

 

(controller change, lady, and a very nice one at that)

 

TWR (female voice ): Northwest 492, Las Vegas Tower, Runway 25R, line up and wait.

Pilot: .... okay, Line up and wait 25R, Northwest 492.

Pilot: Sorry, took me by surprise there, wasn't expecting a lady.

TWR: It's okay, I get that all the time.

Unknown Pilot: from the other guys in the Tower?

TWR: Nah, these guys up here wouldn't know a good lady if they saw one!

 

I wish at that time LiveATC had a feed then so I could have grabbed that.

 

Anyway, back on the topic. This network right now is in the best position to be able to handle situations like this without making the individual feel singled out for who or what they are. I mean, while Simon all but buried the issue, let's put some things to bed here that help to give a lot of perspective about what has happened here (especially from those who were here to see it), as well as what is to come.

 

In my time on this network, I've had the pleasure to be worked by the aforementioned Ruth McTighe on my first overseas flight to the UK during their busiest night. The professionalism she showed on that was absolutely phenomenal, that I set up a flight every Saturday night into Sunday morning to catch her and her crew controlling (I was in Las Vegas). Not only was it that she was professional about things, but very friendly, and when the case of someone tried to play the man card against her, she didn't get upset, but [Mod - Happy Thoughts]erted and exuded authority. From then on, no-one messed with Auntie Ruth!

 

I think because we are so much of a niche community, most women won't think about it, because of who and what we are and what we do. However, there are some women out there trying to change that, and if we can position ourselves to be at the forefront to help with that, it could come a long way. For example, everyone has heard me rant on about Amelia Rose Earhart. No, she is not related to Amelia Mary Earhart (the one that vanished near Howland Island). Amelia Mary completed Amelia Rose's trip, and in the process, handed out $75000 in scholarship money to aspiring young ladies who want to become pilots. She did that 5 years ago, when most of the recipients were 15 or younger. They are now in the time of their lives where they can be putting that money to use, let alone learning what it takes to be pilots. We're in the position now to help accelerate that, if we don't keep trying to single people out for who and what they are.

 

Now, don't get me wrong; if we do it in a positive way, like taking a lady who is nervous about what she is doing here, and showing her another lady who is comfortable in what they do here so they can have a role model or someone to look to, then that's a good thing; but not so they can get singled out in a negative way.

 

Anywho, I've probably rambled on about something completely useless here, so I'll go sit back in my rocking chair.

 

BL.

[Andreas Fuchs]

That's all fine with me. However, it would make docomeents harder to read if everything was change from "him" or "he" to "him/her" and "he/she". Ok, one might change the terms to just say "pilot" and "controller" to avoid the gender, but I can tell you that reasonable people will understand "he" or "him" in operational docomeents completely detached from gender, it's just a term. It's hard to explain for me, I just would like to re[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that I know a loooooooot of people do not judge gender in this environment - we judge the performance and that can be outstandingly good or bad from any gender.

[Alistair Thomson]

+1 Andreas. The English language is blameworthy in this regard. Many European languages have genderless personal pronouns, which is really needed in English, but "they" just doesn't do it for me, since that applies in the plural.

 

I've met the use of "she" substituting for "he" but that's just as bad, although it does make a point! However, I don't think the use of "he" or "sir" etc. is a deliberate attempt to belittle females: it's simply a product of a faulty language.

[Joaquin Blanco]

With the exception of Liesel no women have contributed to this thread. We know there are some women controlers and pilots but still very few. Perhaps placing some ads in some publications mainly read by women would make them more interested seeing that the majority don't even know anything about Flight Simulation or how advanced it is. Would be great if we could achieve more a more balanced membership as in real life.

[Dace Nicmane]

I don't think the use of "he" or "sir" etc. is a deliberate attempt to belittle females: it's simply a product of a faulty language.

The issue about "sir" is not a grammatical issue. It's a question of attitude. As I said, somebody hears a female voice on the frequency and thinks: "This sounds like a female, however this is VATSIM, so it can't be true. It's probably a little boy, so I'll be nice to him and call him sir." There is a word "ma'am" to address women. And when in doubt, neither has to be used, it's not after all part of phraseology.

 

With the exception of Liesel no women have contributed to this thread.

Me. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Dace,

The issue about "sir" is not a grammatical issue. It's a question of attitude. As I said, somebody hears a female voice on the frequency and thinks: "This sounds like a female, however this is VATSIM, so it can't be true. It's probably a little boy, so I'll be nice to him and call him sir." There is a word "ma'am" to address women. And when in doubt, neither has to be used, it's not after all part of phraseology.

that's an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption of you, I think. "Sir" is just deeply embedded, it's an automatism. I hear it in the real world every now and then, the word just escapes your mouth before you could stop your lips from moving. And at the same time you think doh!.

[Dace Nicmane]

that's an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption of you, I think.

No, I've actually had a controller tell me this. He told me that he'd definitely rather make the mistake of calling a woman "sir" than simply omit the nicety. This was rather extreme, though, and I don't think that it's a popular opinion.

 

During my 4 years on VATSIM, I can count on one hand's fingers how many times I've been called "ma'am" - mostly by controllers who already knew me. I've been called "sir" countless times, often repeatedly and with an emphasis, during one flight, where you can't say, it just rolled off the lips.

 

I'm saying that controllers are shy to use "ma'am" even when they think they should because it is somehow perceived that a boy that is called "ma'am" by mistake will be more offended than a girl who is called "sir". This is my impression anyway.