Getting the squawk code and clearance to taxi in the same ATC instruction?

[Richard Lee]

Hi. I am new to VATSIM.  So I was doing an IFR flight and I was at the parking ramp.  There was a center ATC that oversaw the airport (no other ATC were at the airport so it fell under the jurisdiction of the center controller).  So I called the center ATC and the center ATC gave me my squawk code, and then in the same instruction, said something like "... taxi when ready" at the end of the instruction (sorry, my memory is a little fuzzy on this, but I think I also got the taxiway directions as well).

I entered my squawk code as usual, and then called back the center ATC and asked for clearance to taxi (ie. "request taxi").  But the center ATC told me that I already got clearance to taxi earlier when he said "...taxi when ready."  This was surprising to me since the usual procedure with most other ATC I interact with is to enter my squawk code first after I receive it from ATC, and then ask ATC after that for a request to taxi.

So is "...taxi when ready" a common ATC phraseology to give the pilot clearance to taxi? (At least I think that's what he said from my memory).   If "...taxi when ready" is the ATC phraseology that ATC can give you when they give you your squawk code, then it's something I'll have to look out for in the future in case ATC gives me clearance to taxi at the same time I get my squawk code.

Edited October 1, 2020 at 06:33 PM by Richard Lee

[Robert Shearman Jr]

I would have expected "Runway {xx}, taxi pilot's discretion" if they were too busy to issue a specific taxi instruction.

[Richard Lee]

27 minutes ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

I would have expected "Runway {xx}, taxi pilot's discretion" if they were too busy to issue a specific taxi instruction.

If my memory is correct, I think I got the runway to taxi to as well.  I do recall getting the taxiway paths up to the runway, when I received my squawk code.  From the viewpoint of the controller, I believe he gave me all the information necessary to taxi up to the runway and which runway to use (which would make sense if the controller gave me clearance to taxi when I received my squawk code).

But I don't recall the phrase "taxi at pilot's discretion" or "taxi at discretion."  Because if I repeated "taxi at discretion" back to ATC, that would be very obvious to me that I I have clearance to taxi at my discretion.  The phrase was more like "... taxi when ready" or something like that, which didn't seem 100% obvious to me that I had clearance to taxi.

Anyways, I will watch out in the future if ATC gives me clearance to taxi at the same time they give me the squawk code.  It's not something that I expected since I am usually used to getting the squawk code first, and then having to ask ATC for taxi clearance after that.

Edited October 1, 2020 at 08:53 PM by Richard Lee

[Andreas Fuchs]

2 hours ago, Richard Lee said:

So is "...taxi when ready" a common ATC phraseology to give the pilot clearance to taxi?

Normally not, but if an ATCO assesses that he's too busy to perform ground control duties without degrading the service to pilots in the air, this kind of thing can happen: issue IFR clearances only, instruct pilots to taxi on their own and report ready for departure.

Edited October 1, 2020 at 09:27 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Brad Littlejohn]

Ahh..

This is one of the inevitable fallacies of VATSIM but is not a fault of VATSIM or anyone, so please do not take this as a criticism against VATSIM. Here is what I mean.

To answer your question, "taxi when ready" is not ATC phraseology, nor should ever be, regardless of division (US/FAA, ICAO, or otherwise). Additionally, what is happening here is broad scope of what top-down design gets us. As the top-down design for ATC would imply that the Center/FIR controller is also the Ground controller, that would also imply that the Center controller would be familiar with every taxiway at every airport under their control, whether the airport in question is towered, untowered, or otherwise. What further complicates this (at least for the US) are the changes that went into the 7110.65N (may have been an earlier revision) that changed the phraseology for taxiing to a runway. Prior to that change, proper outbound taxiing phraseology was:

Quote

ABC123, taxi to runway 14R.

That not only told the pilot which runway to taxi to, but also gave the pilot implicit instructions to cross any and all runways needed to get to the assigned runway. If there was to be a specific hold short instruction, more specific instructions had to be given, including the route to the runway:

Quote

ABC123, runway 14R, taxi via Foxtrot, Alpha, hold short of runway 18.

Because of a couple of incidents, all outbound taxiway phraseology was changed to be the latter, regardless of any hold short instruction or not.

Because of that change, and with our top-down design, we as ATC would implicitly have to be aware of all airport layouts, including the taxiways for the sectors/FIRs we control. That's a big task. For example, myself being at ZLA, I can be familiar with our major fields (KLAS, KSAN, KLAX, etc.) because of how frequently pilots fly in to those towered fields. KNYL, KPSP, KCRQ, KSBP, KMYF, and KSBA are all towered. should I be expected to know every single taxiway for those fields, to conform with standard phraseology? No. Personally for something like that, and for the incident above, I'd revert back to the phraseology prior to the change I mentioned. That way, we still have something standard, but also helps us at the Center/FIR level with regards to top-down design.

To digress for a bit, another option would be for the controller to treat the field as untowered; and if you were given an IFR clearance, be sure to protect the field from all arrivals until the departure is airborne; something that we do in the real world as well. Again, I digress.

But to answer the question again: no, "taxi when ready" is not common phraseology; but again, neither is our top-down design.

BL.

Edited October 2, 2020 at 04:50 PM by Brad Littlejohn
code cleanup

[Dhruv Kalra]

I’m with Rob. If I’m too busy to provide exacting top-down, I’ll break out “runway XX, taxi via pilot’s discretion, cross all runways”.

Of note, the ICAO 4444 equivalent to the FAA Term “at pilot’s discretion” is indeed “when ready”, so depending on where in the world the OP was, this might be why that particular phraseology was used.

[Richard Lee]

6 hours ago, Dhruv Kalra said:

I’m with Rob. If I’m too busy to provide exacting top-down, I’ll break out “runway XX, taxi via pilot’s discretion, cross all runways”.

Of note, the ICAO 4444 equivalent to the FAA Term “at pilot’s discretion” is indeed “when ready”, so depending on where in the world the OP was, this might be why that particular phraseology was used.

Oh, so "when ready" is ICAO phraseology!  That's good to know.

Personally, as a pilot, I think "at your discretion" is easier to understand that I have clearance.

[Brad Littlejohn]

9 hours ago, Richard Lee said:

Oh, so "when ready" is ICAO phraseology!  That's good to know.

Personally, as a pilot, I think "at your discretion" is easier to understand that I have clearance.

 

"At pilot's discretion" is exact phraseology, and that is correct. yes.

"When ready" is what I would be questioning. I may be wrong on this one so I'm hoping one of the RW guys can clarify on it, but "when ready" doesn't ring as standard phraseology since I started ATC.

BL.

 

[Andreas Fuchs]

"When ready" is part of ICAO Doc 4444.

[Dhruv Kalra]

3 hours ago, Brad Littlejohn said:

 

"At pilot's discretion" is exact phraseology, and that is correct. yes.

"When ready" is what I would be questioning. I may be wrong on this one so I'm hoping one of the RW guys can clarify on it, but "when ready" doesn't ring as standard phraseology since I started ATC.

BL.

 

I stated it pretty clearly above. “When Ready” is the ICAO Doc 4444 equivalent to the FAA term “at pilot’s discretion”.

[Alistair Thomson]

A small semantic point: it appears that "when ready" is spoken before the action, eg. "when ready, taxy to runway 18..." whereas "at your discretion" is spoken after the action, eg. "takeoff at your discretion." If that is the case from my reading of ICAO Doc 444) then technically "taxy when ready" is minimally incorrect, but no one would die if it were used :).