Oceanic flying

[Jordan Breadon]

Hello, 

I'm looking for some help answering a few questions I have about flying oceanic as I have never done it before on vatsim.

1. Can you message the controller for oceanic clearance the same you would for position reports or should it be done through the radio? 

2. If your departure airport is within the 40 minutes of oceanic entry can you get oceanic clearance off any position at the airport ground, tower etc or should you wait until after departure to get it. 

3. Is oceanic clearance require for flying over the south atlantic ocean?

 

if there is any other bits of useful information out there I should know please do share. 

TIA 

 

 

[Tobias Dammers]

1 hour ago, Jordan Breadon said:

Can you message the controller for oceanic clearance the same you would for position reports or should it be done through the radio? 

It depends on the station. Some will accept clearance requests via text messages, some may support Hoppie ACARS, Gander/Shanwick has a website that you can (sometimes) use, some require calling in via the radio. The Oceanic FIRs all have documents explaining what is expected from you AFAIK. For example, for the North Atlantic, [Gander Oceanic](https://ganderoceanic.ca/) is a great starting point.

1 hour ago, Jordan Breadon said:

If your departure airport is within the 40 minutes of oceanic entry can you get oceanic clearance off any position at the airport ground, tower etc or should you wait until after departure to get it. 

In principle, you can get your oceanic clearance whenever it suits you, provided you do it well in advance (at least 30 minutes before oceanic entry). However, you don't want to have to make your request during the "sterile cockpit" phase of the flight (takeoff roll to 10,000 feet), so generally if your oceanic entry is less than 40 minutes from your departure, you would typically get the oceanic clearance on the ground, and if it's later, you'd get airborne and climb out to 10,000 first, and then make your request when you have a low-workload moment.

1 hour ago, Jordan Breadon said:

Is oceanic clearance require for flying over the south atlantic ocean?

Yes. All oceanic airspace requires oceanic clearances, with a few exceptions for domestic flights in countries that lie within oceanic airspace, e.g. Iceland or Greenland.

However, oceanic control facilities over the South Atlantic aren't staffed often on VATSIM, and when there are no controllers, you obviously can't get an oceanic clearance, so in practice, you will most likely fly there without an oceanic clearance - just like you don't get a regular IFR clearance when you depart on Unicom in domestic airspace.

[Jordan Breadon]

Thanks for the information. 

Regarding other Oceanic areas such as the pacific are the procedures the same providing there is a controller on? Where clearance would be received then a position report every 45 minutes.

 

[Torben Andersen]

Position reports are normally at least in the North Atlantic, done for every 10 degrees longitude (except for very high latitudes), e.g. passing 60N 10W - 60N 20W - etc.

[Karl Mathias Moberg]

On 7/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, Tobias Dammers said:

Yes. All oceanic airspace requires oceanic clearances, with a few exceptions for domestic flights in countries that lie within oceanic airspace, e.g. Iceland or Greenland.

 

You do not need a specific oceanic clearance when departing an FAA facility and flying through New York Oceanic airspace. That's implied through the normal IFR clearance you get when you're on the ground.

Edited August 5, 2021 at 10:38 PM by Karl Mathias Moberg

[Alistair Thomson]

9 minutes ago, Karl Mathias Moberg said:

That's implied through the normal IFR clearance you get when you're on the ground.

Interesting. Can you give an example of an implied clearance like that?

[William Teale]

2 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

Interesting. Can you give an example of an implied clearance like that?

Chapter 5.6 of ICAO Doc 007 describes it and gives a couple examples. I quote the relevant portions of Chapter 5 below:

Quote

5.6.1 In September 2012, New York Center changed the way in which Oceanic Clearances are delivered to aircraft that enter the NAT via the New York Oceanic CTA.

5.6.2 There are three elements to an Oceanic Clearance; Complete Route, Flight and Mach number. These elements do not have to be issued in the same clearance. Additionally, these elements may not be issued by the same ATS Provider. For example, the Route portion may be issued by one ATC Unit, the Oceanic Altitude issued by another and finally the Mach Number by a third. The receipt of all three elements, even if not received at the same time, constitutes receipt of an Oceanic Clearance and no further request for one is necessary. The detail of the procedures followed may differ depending on the ICAO region from which the
flight originates.

5.6.3 For aircraft planning to enter the NAT via the New York OCA from the NAM, CAR or SAM regions, the IFR clearance to destination received at the departure aerodrome from Air Traffic Control constitutes the Route portion of the Oceanic Clearance. Once airborne, and prior to entry into the NAT, aircraft will be assigned a Mach number and an Altitude by the FAA prior to NAT entry.

Note: For the purpose of this procedure,” complete route” is defined as any route clearance with a clearance limit of the aircraft’s destination.

5.6.4 Example one: on a flight from Santo Domingo (MDSD) to Madrid (LEMD), Santo Domingo ACC issues a clearance with a complete route; later, San Juan Center issues the aircraft a clearance to its requested altitude and Mach number. At this point, all three required elements (route, Mach number and flight level) have been received and the flight has an Oceanic Clearance. A subsequent change to any element(s) of the Oceanic Clearance does not alter the others.

5.6.5 Example two: on a flight from New York (KJFK) to Madrid (LEMD), Kennedy Clearance Delivery up-links a clearance via Pre-Departure Clearance (PDC) with a complete route and altitude; later, New York Center assigns the aircraft a Mach number. At this point, all three required elements (route, Mach number and flight level) have been received and the flight has an Oceanic Clearance. A subsequent change to any element(s) of the Oceanic Clearance does not alter the others.

Worth highlighting is that this is specific to New York Centre. Also worth highlighting that Doc 007 is not regulatory in nature, but just explains rules published elsewhere - I dont know where you'd find the actual rule or FAR that establishes that practice.

[Alex Ying]

2 hours ago, William Teale said:

Chapter 5.6 of ICAO Doc 007 describes it and gives a couple examples. I quote the relevant portions of Chapter 5 below:

Worth highlighting is that this is specific to New York Centre. Also worth highlighting that Doc 007 is not regulatory in nature, but just explains rules published elsewhere - I dont know where you'd find the actual rule or FAR that establishes that practice.

The FAA AIP Chapter 7.6 has the New York procedures https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aip_html/part2_enr_section_7.6.html

[Alistair Thomson]

Thanks for that. My misunderstanding was in the use of "implied" and I wondered how that could be done. But the Route portion provided by Ground isn't implied at all: it's specified. :) Maybe, as with so many words, the US meaning of "implied" is different from the original English meaning.

[William Teale]

Well, as a clearance it is not implied, it is expressed. It isnt a separate Oceanic Clearance delivered separately - the separate Oceanic Clearance is implicit in the regular IFR clearance.

I'm no USian, but I think the word "implied" suits here.

[Alistair Thomson]

I would be happy with "included" but if it is "expressed" it is not "implied." Sorry to mistake you for an American! :)

[William Teale]

The clearance is expressed - the separate Oceanic Clearance is implied by the expressed IFR clearance. Makes sense to me.

[Alistair Thomson]

There isn't a separate Oceanic clearance. :)

[William Teale]

Ah, in this case I would redirect your attention to all of chapter 5 of Doc 007, which covers Oceanic Clearances.

[Spender Vondel]

Coincidentally I was reading up on NAT-flying today, so here are some (hopefully) helpful links:

AviationPro on flying oceanic in VATSIM (I really like this guy)

A real world overview of oceanic procedures (it's quite old but still seems very relevant)

The ICAO official documentation (a bit too deep for simulation purposes in my opinion, but if you want it thorough, you get it thorough)
https://www.icao.int/EURNAT/Pages/EUR-and-NAT-Document.aspx?RootFolder=%2FEURNAT%2FEUR and NAT Documents%2FNAT Documents%2FNAT Documents%2FNAT Doc 007&FolderCTID=0x012000DAF95319EADD9946B510C5D7B595637D00AA5EB47B299B9A4BAD1968B24E18655C&View={2666E7DD-5F4E-4E64-B16A-CF142A1E5BC9}

Edited August 8, 2021 at 07:44 PM by Spender Vondel