Aircrafts skipping last point of the STAR

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

This is written, among many other SID/STARS, in my ESE-file:

STAR:ENGM:19R:SUMAK5M:SUMAK BEBIS GM397 GM396 TOMRA

 

The problem is that the aircrafts who is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned the SUMAK5M arrival for rwy19R seems to skip the last point of the STAR namely TOMRA. This have happened every time an aircraft is on the SUMAK5M arrival. In the FP on ES there is no sign of the fix TOMRA. The STAR route goes directly from GM396 (the second last navaid in the STAR) to the airport (ENGM). I have checked my sectorfile and it does contain the fix TOMRA. Also this have happened with another STAR as well with another fix as the last navaid in the STAR, but at the same airport, also here the same problem occurs with the last navaid dissapearing... But I have only had this problem on some of the STARs to that specific airport...

 

Anyone who could help?

[Daniel Doorgakant]

If aircrafts are skipping the last point of the STAR, wouldn't this mean that the problem is down to their aircraft (Navdata)?

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

No you misunderstood me, or maybe I described the problem badly...

 

The aircrafts are not skipping the last navaid in the STAR, they head after GM396 straight to TOMRA just as they should, but ES, for some strange reason, thinks that the aircrafts are supposed to skip the last navaid.

 

Here's a screenshot of an aircraft (not shown on the scope) that is to follow the TOR5M which is written like this in the ESE: STAR:ENGM:19R:TOR5M:TOR KORAX GM396 TOMRA

As you can see ES want the plane to go dct from GM396 to ENGM (the airport), but it is actually supposed to go to TOMRA acording to the STAR and the ESE-file.

 

 

 

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

Hm, is it possible that the aircraft p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es the airport that close, that ES [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umes the last waypoint ENGM to be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed and therefore TOMRA being skipped? However that should just happen when the aircraft p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es the airport and not already in route calculation, right?

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

Magnus, make one test: add a point after TOMRA, one of the two fix on the final. And see if the last point will be skipped again or TOMRA. Then to be fully sure, remove GM396 and see again. It may be that TOMRA is skipped for some reason from ES, but it may be some other reason.

 

However that should just happen when the aircraft p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es the airport and not already in route calculation, right?

I think no, in any case, GM396/7 should be skipped if that was true, as they are closer to each other and the airport

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

ok, thanks for your replies, here is what I have found out: When I remove GM396 everything is fine (except from the fact that the GM396 navaid is not in the STAR). The aircraft on a TOR5M arrival now proceeds directly from KORAX to TOMRA, as it should when I remove GM396. But now I want to know why GM396 (, GM395 and GM397 and every other GMXXX navaid) is causing a problem? The navaid GM396 is not important in the TOR5M arrival, as you can see of the pic, but in other STARs the GMXXX navaid is vital.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

Well I can tell you...but I wouldn't be 100%, Gergely must reply, the reason may be that GM points are only on your airways database files, and not in your sct file. Put them in the sct and test again, I'm 99% sure this will fix the problem.

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

All my GM points are in the sct file under the prefix [fixes] among with all my other fixes.

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

I think no, in any case, GM396/7 should be skipped if that was true, as they are closer to each other and the airport

Hm, why should it be skipped? I was thinking about the behaviour of ES, that it [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umes a waypoint to be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed when within a range of 5nm or so. The aircraft would fly to GM396 and there getting in range for ENGM which triggers ENGM as last reached waypoint. That's when TOMRA would be skipped. But from my understanding, this could only happen when the aircraft is already flying the routing and not already on prediction.

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

That sounds reasonable, GM396 is 6.6nm from ENGM. If this is the case, is it possible to fix it?

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

If this was really the case, the problem would be that this behaviour is intentional to compensate imprecise routings. We'll see what Gergely says about this.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

I don't think this is the case. We have NISVA arrival and see the picture... SOF is less then 5nm...it is on the airport in fact (VOR) but the next points are not skipped.

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

Neither do I, but that's something most bugs have in common ... they should not happen

 

@Magnus: might be good to prepare a log of an aircraft that shows this behaviour.

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

All my GM points are in the sct file under the prefix [fixes] among with all my other fixes.

Could You point out which sectorfile You are using? I just looked into the norway sectorfile available on vaccsca page (not the ES package for sweden), and the GMxxx fixes are not included. To make that clear: the waypoint might be in a STAR/SID drawing under SID/STAR section, but those are not used for route calculation. Under FIXES there is no GMxxx defined. So if You would be using this sectorfile, that would explain the problems in general. On the other hand then ES shouldn't be able to find GM396 which it does, so it's unlikely a problem with the definition.

 

And by the way, GMxxx is not part of the airway.txt as they are no regular waypoints but terminal fixes used only for SIDs/STARs.

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

Scroll a bit longer down on the VACCSCA download page, there you see a newer file called "Norway Ver. 1.2" or something... I use a modified version of this sectorfile. The sectorfile you looked at is an old one and it is out dated

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

Ok, without having a look into details, it looks fine for me, so I'm back with my original theory, that ENGM was triggered as waypoint reached.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

I don't have time now, but will test it. But as long it works in my sector I tend to think it is sector/navigation file problem.

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

That's exactly the point, I don't think it's really a problem as it works for me the way it's supposed to be, too The only thing that confuses me is, that it seems to occure already on route prediction, which from what I know shouldn't be the case. How does it work for you? When an aircraft on that STAR overflys the airport, is the airport [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed to be reached and therefore the route cut? If not, there might be a different behaviour when two waypoints have the exact same position.

 

@Magnus: maybe you can send us a log + sct + ese when you had a chance to reproduce this behaviour.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

To be honest, I almost never use the "route prediction". I'll test it tomorrow and will report, but I think that the rule of 5nm is active only if direct is given, and if not the rule is active for the next point only not for every point....but this is only pure [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

@Magnus: maybe you can send us a log + sct + ese when you had a chance to reproduce this behaviour.

I'll do that, where should I send it?

[Gergely Csernak]

Magnus,

 

Send it directly to me at [email protected].

 

Stephan,

 

You are right. The p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed fixes are only taken into account when the plane is there, but never when they are far away from the point.

[Rolf Arne Beck 979838]

My ESE file for ENGM dosn't seem to have the same problems. I use Norway 2007 Ver1.2 and I also have the latest FSNavigator file if that makes any difference.

 

 

[Magnus Eliassen 989183]

I also have the latest FSNavigator file if that makes any difference.

 

It obviously did make a difference:) I downloaded the latest FSNAV file and now it works just fine Dunno why it didn't work with the old file though, but who cares.

 

Thanks for your help guys, consider this one as solved

[Rolf Arne Beck 979838]

Now I'm having this problem

 

I'm using a ESE created by somebody else, and I can't figure out what the problem is

 

As you can see, ES skips the two first waypoints in the SID.

 

You can see that the waypoints are stated in the .ese file.

 

I'm also using the latest FSNav file.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

Using the latest AIRAC, doesn't mean that there will be no errors, the fix might have been removed from use, the AIRAC can have some errors in it. Did you have that problem, before updating to 0810? If not...try to find some other copy of the AIRAC file, or downgrade to 0809, till 0811 is out

 

P.S. Also are the GMXXX fixes used in the .ese, user defined (by this I mean there are entered in the *.sct file manually with coordinates) or are they real RNAV fixes?