Harold Rutila 974112 Posted August 19, 2008 at 01:46 AM Posted August 19, 2008 at 01:46 AM Hello all, I'm finally ready to get a new computer, and I've been considering building one from scratch for a little while. I've been poking around at NewEgg.com after being referred to that site by a friend. I've done some reading on building a PC, what parts are needed, and so on. The only things that are holding me back have to do with product integration with FSX. I'm planning to run Vista as well. I'm looking to fit all of this within a $1,000 budget, slightly more or less. Here are my questions: 1. There has been a lot of talk on the forums about video cards, which ones are better than others, etc. Here's what I'm looking for: I would like to buy a video card that provides good frame rates (20 fps minimum). In addition, it needs to have functional anti-aliasing in FS9 and FSX. I've heard some things where the GeForce 8800 GT is better in that regard than the GeForce 8800 GTS. What about other GeForce models like the 9600 series? I'm hoping someone can clarify there. Also, if you're not a fan of Nvidia/GeForce, what might you recommend in the ATI department? 2. Is a large hard drive really worth it? Will flight simulator performance be impacted by a stock hard drive? I don't need to hold a ton of files or anything like that. I'm thinking 160GB or less. There's really no need for me to spend a lot on a giant hard drive when the basic may be able to do the trick. 3. Processors. Intel? Duo Core? Quad Core? I'm looking to run FS9 and FSX (until the PMDG 737NGX comes out...hehe), but I'm pretty sure FS9 won't utilize the Quad Core. Does FSX? If they both do not, I'll stick with a Duo. 4. Memory. Is 4 Gigs enough? 5. Cooling. What kind of temperatures should I be looking for on average? 6. Overclocking. If I were to purchase a GeForce 8800 GT, should I be looking into overclocking? I've seen the overclocking software GeForce provides on their website. Is that worth doing? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted August 19, 2008 at 02:14 AM Posted August 19, 2008 at 02:14 AM I've heard some things where the GeForce 8800 GT is better in that regard than the GeForce 8800 GTS. What about other GeForce models like the 9600 series? You'll want to look at benchmarks to be sure, but when surfing on newegg for some other hardware, I noticed that a 512MB 8800GT is selling in the $120-$145 range. That's seriously awesome, and I almost replaced my 320MB 8800GTS before sanity was regained. Is a large hard drive really worth it? Will flight simulator performance be impacted by a stock hard drive? I don't need to hold a ton of files or anything like that. I'm thinking 160GB or less. Flight Simulator runs just as fast if you have 10GB of free disk space, as if you have 100GB. The size of your hard disk is pretty much irrelevant - what matters more is the speed of the drive. My FSX drive is "only" 36GB, but I'm quite confident that it's faster than anyone else's, because it's a 15,000 RPM Ultra160 SCSI drive. Look for a 10K SATA drive, not 7200 RPM. I'm pretty sure FS9 won't utilize the Quad Core. Does FSX? FSX will use a quad-core, but FS9 will not. My personal opinion is that the sweet spot right now is a fast dual core chip. I have an E6750 overclocked to 3.2Ghz, and it runs FS9 all sliders to the max and FSX with sliders around 60-70% of the way to the right. It also blasts through any other workload I throw at it. Memory. Is 4 Gigs enough? Plenty. I've never swapped with "only" 2GB, despite running FSX, Eclipse, ACARS, VS2008, Firefox, ServInfo, SB3 and AS6.5 at the same time. Cooling. What kind of temperatures should I be looking for on average? FS doesn't run any faster if your CPU is at 60C, 50C, 40C or -20C. Generally speaking, you want to be below 50C at load for the CPU. The GPU will be significantly hotter. Set your CPU alarm for 70C and forget about it. Is that worth doing? Generally no, for a CPU-bound app like FS. Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Goldsworthy 925085 Posted August 19, 2008 at 03:18 AM Posted August 19, 2008 at 03:18 AM Flight Simulator runs just as fast if you have 10GB of free disk space, as if you have 100GB. The size of your hard disk is pretty much irrelevant - what matters more is the speed of the drive. My FSX drive is "only" 36GB, but I'm quite confident that it's faster than anyone else's, because it's a 15,000 RPM Ultra160 SCSI drive. Look for a 10K SATA drive, not 7200 RPM. Luke Just an alternative to what Luke said. Running 2 7200 RPM drives in raid 0 is just as fast, if not faster then the 10000 RPM drives. I had a 10000 RPM WD raptor drive before I built my new box back in Jan. I currently run 2 7200 RPM 250 gb Seagate drives in raid 0 and I think it's faster than the raptor drive that I had. Raid 0 takes 2 hard drives and makes them 1. It stores the data across the 2 drives and reads it from both at the same time, therefore speeding it up. I'm not saying either way is better, but there are options out there. I looked at both the 8800GT and 8800GTS when I build my system. I found the GT had more bang for the buck. The 8800GTS did have the option for more Vram but the clock speeds were faster on the GT. As far as your budget is concerned. Here is the system I built for $1100 back in Jan: ASUS P5N32E-SLI Plus mobo Intel Core 2 duo E6750 CPU (2.66 stock OC to 3.2) Nvidia Geforce 8800GT OC2 vid card (512mb Vram, 675mhz clock speed) 2 X Seagate Barracuda 250gb HD's (Raid 0) Thermaltake 650W PSU 2 X 1024mb Patriot extreme performance ram. 2 X LG dual layer DVD burners with litescribe. Shawn "SX" Goldsworthy Retired ATM/ Staff Instructor Los Angeles ARTCC N123SX | xxx554 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scobie 858274 Posted August 19, 2008 at 04:32 AM Posted August 19, 2008 at 04:32 AM ... I've been considering building one from scratch for a little while. ... I'm looking to fit all of this within a $1,000 budget, slightly more or less. you may find this helpful - http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVGSBG/article.php/10708_3747766__1 -- -- d. scobie simmer since FS1 for the MAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erhan Atesoglu 1050499 Posted August 19, 2008 at 06:02 AM Posted August 19, 2008 at 06:02 AM Harold: Nvidia decided to go from 90nm to 65nm without renumbering the 8800. All the current 8800's are 512mb versions and no the GTS is better than a GT. And yes the newer 8800GT has more guts than the old 8800GTS so yes stay away from anything that isn't 512mb If your budget is a concern stick with the 8800GT, as far as overclocking it, I wouldn't bother most manufacturers already OC them a good 10-15% for you. Also make sure you get the WD 7200.11 harddrives.. they're still some non perpindicular drives out there, but its worth the extra 10 bux for the speed! Also stick with asus components as much as you can if your wondering what motherboard to buy... and one more hint, buy the OEM version of Vista with the CPU. Good luck! http://www.pond64.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted August 20, 2008 at 03:10 AM Author Posted August 20, 2008 at 03:10 AM I was actually very blown away at what you can get for $1,000. To think that I almost went with HP or Dell is almost stupid! Newegg has a GeForce 9600GT for $109. The only problem is that it's not in stock, but I'm more than happy to wait. Here's what I have so far: RAIDMAX SMILODON ATX-612WBP Black 1.0mm SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Foldout MB Computer Case With 500W Power Supply - Retail --Recommended in the guide David linked me to. Intel BOXDP35DPM LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail --Came in a bundle deal with my Processor, and it seemed like a descent buy. Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail --A step or two up from what the guide recommended, great price, why not... Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM --I unfortunately couldn't find a 10000 RPM model. I have a feeling this will do the trick, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, please! CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5 - Retail --I'm not too worried about memory, but I'm confident Luke is right going with 4GB And I'm going with Vista, so 4GB makes since (the guide recommended 2GB I think) Sony NEC Optiarc Black IDE DVD-ROM Drive Model DDU1615/B2s - OEM --Was rated well on Newegg and was less than $20. I don't need to burn CDs or DVDs (I'm keeping my current computer for that). I just need to read them. For the OS, I'm thinking Vista Home Premium, as this is pretty much going to be a VATSIM-only PC -- that is, all the software that I use to fly online and the radar client. After the 9600GT, the total comes to slightly more than $1,000. What's great is that I have $45 in mail-in rebates, and I've saved around $30 by doing these "combo deals." Mice, keyboard, and sound is no problem...I have spares lying around the house and the motherboard has a good enough sound card for me. I'm going to use the same monitor, and I'll be able to find a used one for the computer I'm currently on, which saves me a hundred dollars or so. David, I thank you lots for that link! I used it a lot. I did querk things a little bit, too. Does anyone have recommendations for changes to what I've got listed? I haven't bought anything yet, as I'm still waiting for that 9600 to come back in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted August 20, 2008 at 03:35 AM Posted August 20, 2008 at 03:35 AM Just an alternative to what Luke said. Running 2 7200 RPM drives in raid 0 is just as fast, if not faster then the 10000 RPM drives. A few years back I went the RAID0 route, with a trio of IBM-branded Seagate 4GB 7200rpm Ultrawide SCSI drives. Looking back, I joke that it was my own personal 727 - three jet turbines that had to spool up, a great deal of heat and noise and performance easily supplanted by more modern technology. I'm probably going to try RAID0 again on a lark if ever get a matched pair or trio of drives, but it's worth noting that there are two aspects of performance - bandwidth and latency, and RAID0 only helps with the former. If you're doing large sequential reads and writes, then certainly being able to stripe them between multiple drives is going to help on a near-linear basis. For access and loading a large number of smaller files on the other hand, I'm not so sure RAID0 will give a significant improvement. But it's still fun to watch several drives spool up on startup and hear a cacophony of drive heads when firing up MSFS. Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted August 20, 2008 at 09:56 AM Author Posted August 20, 2008 at 09:56 AM But it's still fun to watch several drives spool up on startup and hear a cacophony of drive heads when firing up MSFS. Hahaha I bet. Gets you all exited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Sculley-Beaman Posted August 20, 2008 at 08:04 PM Posted August 20, 2008 at 08:04 PM Harold, in addition to what you have, what you need to grab: -Bigger power supply. 500W is more than enough for both, but with your graphics card, motherboard, memory, and cooling, you'll be running low in my opinion. -Don't see a motherboard? -Cooling. Really. Seriously. Get some big ol' fans, I'll be able to give you more specific advice once you give us a bit more specs. I like to keep mine around 25-30 celcius max when my comp is running. -If you're gonna build a good comp, I suggest getting a decent sound card to make the experience complete. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erhan Atesoglu 1050499 Posted August 20, 2008 at 09:20 PM Posted August 20, 2008 at 09:20 PM Also get the 8800 GT instead. the 9600 GT might be newer but 8800GT still has better specs... http://www.pond64.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted August 21, 2008 at 12:35 AM Author Posted August 21, 2008 at 12:35 AM Intel BOXDP35DPM LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail --Came in a bundle deal with my Processor, and it seemed like a descent buy. Stephen, there you go. It's easy to overlook my list...it's kinda jumbled, sorry. I'll consider the larger power supply, but I'm not too sure about it yet. That guide (not that I'm completely worshiping it or anything...hehe) does say that the 500W is ...well equipped for a value system, and in addition to the ample 500W rating, it features 20/24-pin main power, and connectors for 4-pin 12V CPU, 6-pin PCI Express, and SATA power. Erhan, thanks for that great tip! I wasn't actually aware of that. Here's what I have now, in a little easier format to read than last time. Motherboard RAIDMAX SMILODON ATX-612WBP Black 1.0mm SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Foldout MB Computer Case With 500W Power Supply - Retail Processor Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500 - Retail Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD1601ABYS 160GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM Video Card BFG Tech BFGE88512GTOCXFE GeForce 8800 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail Memory CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5 - Retail DVD-ROM Drive Sony NEC Optiarc Black IDE DVD-ROM Drive Model DDU1615/B2s - OEM Operating System Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 32-bit English 1pk for System Builders DSP OEI DVD - OEM Casing and Power Supply RAIDMAX SMILODON ATX-612WBP Black 1.0mm SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Foldout MB Computer Case With 500W Power Supply - Retail - Power...is it enough for this? - Cooling...the GeForce is cooled by ThermoIntelligence, but I think it's probably a good idea to get cooling for the whole thing. --What about this? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147104 Then I would have to get a separate power unit (750 maybe?). Not a big deal, and I'm not too worried about the size of the case either. On the contrary, should I keep the original case, add two more fans, then possibly a new power unit? Almost there. $200 left to spare, I found some double-entries in the shopping cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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