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[Clint Wallis 1078533]

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Edited May 27, 2021 at 01:18 AM by Clint Wallis 1078533
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[Callum Riseley 1058796]

The correct way of saying it is "EZY118 runway 27 cleared take off, surface wind one one zero degrees eight knots"

[Callum McLoughlin]

The correct way of saying it is "EZY118 runway 27 cleared take off, surface wind one one zero degrees eight knots"

 

That's not entirely correct in itself, everything apart from "cleared for takeoff" is entirely optional, depending on the circomestance - every transmission must be as clear to the recipient as it is to the transmitter, hence often the entire message will be given. The surface wind does not have to be given more than once, for example, if a pilot has the current ATIS letter then it is not required to include the surface wind as part of the clearance, but of course it is hard to keep track of who has what, especially when it is busy, hence it is better to be safe than sorry.

 

The runway designator only has to be given for increased clarity, for example, if you are operating a single runway aerodrome and an aircraft is established on the ILS, then it is obvious to both the pilot and the controller which runway the aircraft will be landing on.

 

Hence: "EZY273 cleared to land" is entirely acceptable.

 

Key points:

 

• Callsign first
  
• Runway (optional)
  
• Clearance
  
• Surface wind (if they do not have it, or for clarity)

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[Ross Bristo 1010003]

[Callum McLoughlin]

Not really Ross. CAP413 spells it out quite clearly

[Clint Wallis 1078533]

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Edited May 27, 2021 at 01:18 AM by Clint Wallis 1078533
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[James Kirkwood 953640]

Not really Ross. CAP413 spells it out quite clearly

 

removed as inappropriate. KWR 810181

[Glen Watson 929030]

I think an extremely simple concept is being looked at far too deeply It's quite amusing to read though.

 

At the end of the day, it's Vatsim. @Clint: For the purposes of the tower exam, you will not be penalised for saying it in an "incorrect" way. As long as all the information is there; Runway ID, "Cleared to Land"/"Land after", Surface wind, then you will be fine.

 

G

[Clint Wallis 1078533]

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Edited May 27, 2021 at 01:19 AM by Clint Wallis 1078533
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[Callum Riseley 1058796]

The correct way of saying it is "EZY118 runway 27 cleared take off, surface wind one one zero degrees eight knots"

 

That's not entirely correct in itself

 

I was simply giving a basic, normal landing clearance. People are thinking about this in way too much depth and its just confusing the whole situation.

[Ross Bristo 1010003]

Can i just ask every pilot a question here RW or Vatsim...

 

If someone gave you the landing clearance in a different way than you wold expect it would you cringe? or not want to fly under that controller? .....No

 

Its not a big deal.

 

R...

[Diego Pedraglio]

The surface wind does not have to be given more than once, for example, if a pilot has the current ATIS letter then it is not required to include the surface wind as part of the clearance, but of course it is hard to keep track of who has what, especially when it is busy, hence it is better to be safe than sorry.

 

(Speaking about real life here)

 

ATC has to give the winds ALWAYS during a takeoff or landing clearance. In FS, the METAR winds stay the same during the whole hour, but in real life winds do change, every minute (by 20-30º sometimes). The values reported at the METAR are simply the average winds reported.

[Callum McLoughlin]

ATC has to give the winds ALWAYS during a takeoff or landing clearance.

 

They only have to do it if there has been a significant change from what has already been received - of course, in real life nobody would be keeping track over whether the instant wind (which is not always available, many aerodromes have a 2 minute average readout only - and if a pilot were to ask for an instant wind they would have to be notified that the reading given was indeed the average) is the same as the one the pilot has received from the ATIS, or from you as a controller earlier on.

 

If, for example, the surface wind is calm and has been steady all morning, there would be no need to give it out if the pilot informed you of the latest information letter.

 

It's also fine to say, "blah continue approach runway 23, surface wind 250 degrees at 12 knots", "blah cleared to land".

 

However, I know that most of the time I do not have the will or patience to keep track of such small pieces of information, hence it is far easier just to issue the surface wind each and every time. There's nothing wrong with that, and I would encourage everybody to do the same. My point is, if you hear somebody not giving the wind, it does not necessarily mean they are wrong to do so.

 

To keep it simple - issue it every time, unless you are sure the pilot has a readout which is similar to the one you are about to read out.

[Dave James 1018738]

(Speaking about real life here)

 

ATC has to give the winds ALWAYS during a takeoff or landing clearance. In FS, the METAR winds stay the same during the whole hour, but in real life winds do change, every minute (by 20-30º sometimes). The values reported at the METAR are simply the average winds reported.

 

Thanks for the input Diego, sometimes there can be confusion between the two real world and vatsim (hands-on vs reading from books/docs) and additionally confusion in the virtual world where you have two sources of vitual information, that indeed makes three sources of information which sometimes are all in contradiction of each-other.

 

Funny enough, both as a virtual ATC/Pilot, I havent had that much bother with t/o and landing clearances. If I can remember far back enough real-world, I dont remember "not" being given the surface wind for any t/o or landing.

 

It has already been said above, does it really matter that much on Vatsim as long as the pilot gets the appropriate information in which he/she needs to perform the required actions, I dont think so.

 

David

[Callum McLoughlin]

I feel that the original poster was asking because he wasn't sure what the appropriate information was - additionally, how to get it across in the clearest way. After all, VATSIM is a learning environment, and if somebody asks a question I believe we have a duty to explain something in full, to the best of our ability.

[Clint Wallis 1078533]

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Edited May 27, 2021 at 01:19 AM by Clint Wallis 1078533
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[Michael Pike]

I really don't want to go round again, because it isn't a big issue BUT, don't lose track of a more important fact. The runway designator (if needed) must be before the clearance. This is an important safety issue (in the real world) as it is a final check for the pilot that they are using the right runway. If you put it after, once you say "cleared for take off" they stop listening and don't hear the runway number. This was introduced after incidents of pilots doing just that.

 

All the docomeents are agreed on that.

 

The position of the wind is not important. Clint, I admire your approach of reading the training information available and trying to avoid bad habits, rather than [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that what other people are doing must be right.

[Clint Wallis 1078533]

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Edited May 27, 2021 at 01:20 AM by Clint Wallis 1078533
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[Wycliffe Barrett]

I think an extremely simple concept is being looked at far too deeply It's quite amusing to read though.

 

At the end of the day, it's Vatsim. @Clint: For the purposes of the tower exam, you will not be penalised for saying it in an "incorrect" way. As long as all the information is there; Runway ID, "Cleared to Land"/"Land after", Surface wind, then you will be fine.

 

G

 

At the end of the day I think for controllers, this qoutation from Glen says it all, "For the purposes of the tower exam, you will not be penalised for saying it in an "different" way".

 

As for pilots, well if the info is there, it's there.

 

Wycliffe