Scott DeWoody Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:30 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:30 AM I thought the point of these threads was to discuss things, share one anothers point of view! Alex do those words look familiar? They should, it's what you wrote in the ZMA forums when a topic you were active in got locked. Locking topics, does not lock out ones thoughts, or stifle them. Good try though. Wonder how long this thread will last before it's deleted? Scott DeWoody CEO - American Virtual Airlines joinava dot org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:35 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:35 AM Topics should remain on topic as the op intended. When they begin to trail off on tangents, no benefit remains to the initial topic being discussed. If you'd like to contribute constructive comments, then create the appropriate thread or email the staff. Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:48 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:48 AM Topics should remain on topic as the op intended. When they begin to trail off on tangents, no benefit remains to the initial topic being discussed. I recall a topic started by a long post by Bo that did not seem to survive the night. It's a shame, because he did raise some interesting points, and Andrew Podner had a few good things mentioned as well. Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:50 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:50 AM I agree Luke, and I don't know where it went. I wasn't the one who removed it and I haven't heard a word from who did. Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:06 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:06 AM I know where it is, and a bunch of the responders to that post knew it was coming because he named names, which if it remained in that state subjected him to CoR violation and potential DCRM action. The person who moved it (its hiding, not deleted, we rarely ever delete a whole thread) emailed or PMed Bo and told him what to fix and that after that he could repost it to his heart's content. And, to Alex's point, here we are already OT on this one. Another mystery busted, my work here is done. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Florance 906409 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:52 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:52 AM Censorship Censorship Censorship anything that posted that dosen't sing the praises of this administration gets locked or HIDDEN... Its farcical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom van der elst Posted August 11, 2009 at 11:03 AM Posted August 11, 2009 at 11:03 AM Censorship Censorship Censorship anything that posted that dosen't sing the praises of this administration gets locked or HIDDEN... Its farcical nonsense. anything that names persons by name and can impact negatively on said persons should be hidden,imho. I was following the thread and while I do have some thoughts about it I keep 'm hidden. And as a reminder,this is nót a public service,and thus the powers that be can do as they see fit. Don't like it? Build your own network. cheers Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Gunnar Lindahl Posted August 11, 2009 at 11:26 AM Board of Governors Posted August 11, 2009 at 11:26 AM Am I the only one here thinking that if we spent less time complaining and more time flying/controlling this network would be a better place? GUNNAR LINDAHL [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Clingan 1046339 Posted August 11, 2009 at 12:53 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 12:53 PM I would like to say that I think that it is exceptional that the moderators/BOG whoever moved the post did so and allowed Bo to make the necessary changes to bring it in line with the COC without suspending him or placing notes in his CERT. Bruce Clingan vZID Air Traffic Manager vZID Instructor "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Abraham Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Wright Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:33 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 01:33 PM Don't like it?Build your own network. That is exactly what they've been doing Tom, (not building their own network), they have just not logged on in over 3 years . . . . . Am I the only one here thinking that if we spent less time complaining and more time flying/controlling this network would be a better place? How simple - it does not work like that Gunnar, as our own VATUK can testify ! This is a VATSIM USA issue and to be quite honest I don't know why you guys feel the need to post . . . . I'm am sure they are more than capable of raising and lowering the temperature within their own Division, without the need for us to stir the pot as well. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom van der elst Posted August 11, 2009 at 02:40 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 02:40 PM I felt the need to post because I cannot figure out why literally éverybody thinks VATSIM owes them something. I'm not here to stir the pot,all I know is I'm getting everything I got here for nothing,It's free,and I cannot understand why I read the stuff I read. As for "us not posting here" ... this is a forum for members of VATSIM, and I'm a member,if you guys do not wish others that care as much or maybe even more about VATSIM as you do participating I suggest you folks keep it private. cheers Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Johnston 890281 Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:05 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:05 PM I don't think that Bo or anyone else feel that VATSIM owes them anything. They just don't like to see it being sunk by incompetence and neglect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:16 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:16 PM Censorship Censorship Censorship anything that posted that dosen't sing the praises of this administration gets locked or HIDDEN... Its farcical I'm afraid the facts do not support your conclusion. However I support your right to be wrong. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Gunnar Lindahl Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:39 PM Board of Governors Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:39 PM This is a VATSIM USA issue and to be quite honest I don't know why you guys feel the need to post . . . . I'm am sure they are more than capable of raising and lowering the temperature within their own Division, without the need for us to stir the pot as well. Hi Robert, Believe me, I had no intention to "stir the pot" and I can't see how you draw that conclusion as I can't find anything that suggests malice or provocation in my post. I was merely pointing out an observation I had made, and surely the point of a forum is to discuss these? I am not saying that Scott, Graeme, Bo or anyone else doesn't have merit to their arguments, just pointing out my (and probably a lot of other people's) desire that there wasn't so much politics involved in what is meant to be a hobby. GUNNAR LINDAHL [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:52 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 05:52 PM I don't think that Bo or anyone else feel that VATSIM owes them anything. They just don't like to see it being sunk by incompetence and neglect. Considering that you don't have the slightest clue what's going on in this division, I'd love to see you back up some comments with fact. I believe Kyle's comment equally applies here. I strongly encourage you to take a look around our VATUSA forums and website to see for yourself what we have been doing and what our plans are. There is a topic in the main forum titled "State of VATUSA", describing most of what we have been working on. I've not received one single email from anyone who has been complaining in these forums. If you have problems then you need to bring it to the attention of the staff so that we can analyze your opinions for accuracy and then make the appropriate changes to suit those needs. Otherwise, you're just another barrier hindering the success of this network. The rumors are running rampant and I'm apparently too wrapped into my own values and ethics to respond, but I'll let loose for a minute. Maybe I should enlighten some of you in this forum regarding the "secret" discussions that went on prior to my appointment. I can speak to fact on two occasions where a qualified ATM applicant in ZLA and a qualified ATM applicant in ZJX were prevented from having a shot at the positions because a division staff member simply didn't like them. I think there are MANY flaws within this division and I'm working as hard as I can to fix them, but it's going to take more than just a snap of my fingers. The closed-door way of handling business is slowly working its way into the books of history, but it takes time and I have plenty of work on my plate. The division policies have been so far out of line with the intent of the Founders that it is humiliating, but I'm also making changes to those with the help of EVERY staff member in VATUSA (ATM, DATM, TA, EC, etc.). I will continue doing business as necessary, meeting the desires of the Founders, BoG, EC, and VATSIM membership. If you want to help me, then join us and be a cause for change. We work as a team, so my best advice for everyone is to bring ideas to the table or at the very least share your concerns through the appropriate avenue. VATUSA staff will not entertain discussion laced with animosity and ill-will towards this network. We don't demand respect, but if you want my attention then you had better start approaching me in a professional manner. End rant. Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Podner 994055 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:22 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:22 PM Hey guys, I do not believe that we can continue down this road and expect to continue enjoying being a part of this network. It does not serve any of our interests to fight amongst each other about things that in many instances are largely beyond the control of a single person. We also cannot continue to debate that which has already taken place, as it only eats up the time that we have to look to the future and focus on the tasks in front of us. Not so long ago, we lost the privilege of this forum due to things like what are going on now. I don't believe anyone wants to see that happen again, because it is a poor reflection on our collective ability to communicate with each other. Before we can solve anything, we must first learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Everyone's opinion is welcome, but respect for one another must rule the day. This is not because the CoC requires it; it is because once we start picking sides, we cease to listen to one another and we diminish our point of view and strength of our opinion. Clearly there are changes afoot, we have some very real things in front of us as a group to adjust to. But no one here should believe for one moment that your concerns have been ignored. I have always told my subordinates that even if I don't take your suggestion, it does not mean I did not listen to it. That's important to understand, because at the end of the day, the decision maker alone has to live with the ramifications and effects of the decision, and that person must be comfortable with the decision based on all the information they have. So please, let's try and be respectful here to everyone's opinion. Each voice in this forum has every right to be heard no matter what division they are in. But no one has the right to be disrespectful to another person. There are better ways to make a point that through that type of behavior. This network exists because of and for the benefit of the members, and each of us with a desire to lead, mentor, or participate must examine ourselves once in a while to make sure we are serving that purpose. Good day to all, and I look forward to a more positive way forward in the days, weeks, and months to come. Andrew Podner Division Director VATUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:44 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:44 PM (edited) Censorship Censorship Censorship anything that posted that dosen't sing the praises of this administration gets locked or HIDDEN... Its farcical I'm afraid the facts do not support your conclusion. However I support your right to be wrong. More arrogance, pompousness, and childish antics by the sword wielding BoG members. After the finances get pulled, and Dave Klain is forced to start writing checks, VATSIM will die a slow painful death, most likely by the end of the year. Or a swift rapid one..... Guess it depends on how much expendable income you high ad mighty BoG members have. The pen truely is mightier than the sword, Kyle. My post was sent back to me asking to have the names removed (by a BoG member who has no authority to manipulate, or censor posts in the forum, BTW...). I will do so, and it will go back up, if you say so. I say that I will post it to a location where it will not get censored, or deleted, and the names will remain. DCRM violation? Well, file a complaint, Kyle. You didn't REALLY think that I wouldn't have saved such a solid piece of writing, did you? Edited August 11, 2009 at 06:55 PM by Guest The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:46 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:46 PM Censorship Censorship Censorship anything that posted that dosen't sing the praises of this administration gets locked or HIDDEN... Its farcical I'm afraid the facts do not support your conclusion. However I support your right to be wrong. More arrogance, pompousness, and childish antics by the sword wielding BoG members. After the finances get pulled, and Dave Klain is forced to start writing checks, VATSIM will die a slow painful death, most likely by the end of the year. The pen truely is mightier than the sword, Kyle. My post was sent back to me asking to have the names removed. I will do so, and it will go back up, if you say so. I say that I will post it to a local forum where it will not get censored, or deleted, and the names will remain. DCRM violation? Well, file a complaint, Kyle. Post it here: http://forum.vatusa.us/ Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:51 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:51 PM (edited) Post it here: http://forum.vatusa.us/ Alex, I've got something with a bit more exposure in mind. Thank you for the offer. Something that doesn't require a login and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]word... MAYBE... Facebook? A public blog? Edited August 11, 2009 at 09:09 PM by Guest The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:55 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:55 PM Behavior, as far as I am concerned, is an emergent factor. it comes from one's beliefs and background, flavored by personal experience. Behavior should always be viewed as the outcome data, not an input to be changed through modest or draconian means. Words in speech are far more precise than words in writing, with regard to conveying the true meaning of one's position. When reading the written word one should be very cautious about reading into them nuances that don't really exist. The use of phrases and words can be targeted with great skill to attempt to affect an outcome, or they can be used carelessly toward the same goal. The good news is we all have the same goal in mind; making VATSIM the premier platform for online virtual aviation. At least I think that is the case. In but only a few instances where the person's goal was to destroy some or all of VATSIM for personal reasons, everyone I have met and talked to agree that is what this is about. We disagree on the how; pretty common. Look at health care debate in the US right now. In principle we'd all like affordable and accessible health care. There is a huge divide between numerous factions into just exactly how that works out in practice. It does concern me when people use their words just to amplify an emotional position, not a reasoned one. I know of nobody removed from the forum here who was just expressing an opinion. They get booted when they leave the reasoned discussion and begin an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ault on people or persons, or groups of persons (the leadership), in violation of the CoR requirements to be civil and not to offend people in the name of position politics. In debate, when the opposition starts attacking you instead of the topic, it means you are winning; go for the close. But also ask, why are they doing this? What is their intent? What is their agenda? Is it hidden or transparent? If you are losing an argument, attacking the people attempts to draw them into a debate about them as a person and derail the focus on the topic they were losing on previously. The why they are doing that can reveal a lot of intents, ranging from altruistic to down right meanness. Ever wonder why we tend to react as if the intent is way down the 'mean' scale instead of using the next opportunity to explore the reasons and intent of the person's post, trying to understand why that person feels like they do through just asking them (hint: you probably don't know what their true intent is and your attempts to surmise what it is will lead you down ugly paths). You may have to have a couple of back and forth exchanges, and your job is not to pick apart their argument, but to be able to demonstrate to that person that you truly understand their position. If you still disagree, fine, it is now their turn to be able to find and show you they understand your position. If you can do that you might be surprised how much we agree on in the end. The case in point - the big, bad Moderator saw an otherwise reasoned discussion, but a few points that included names were violations of CoR. The big, bad Moderator has a couple of choices; allow it to stand and wait for the email from the offended and then take action; or deleted it entirely; or remove it from view and contact and encourage the OP to correct the violations and repost. This time they chose the latter; the world awaits the repost at this point. Censorship? Really? Looks more like people taking care of each other to me. I like that facet of VATSIM and it exists on many levels, not just moderators or other leadership. Members take care of each other in the hundreds. I am interested, and will just ask, the intent of posting that in the VATSIM side VATUSA forum when in fact the conversation was in the VATUSA side forum? I can think of a range of intents, from altruistic to just plain meanness, but while I think Bo might have an over abundance of emotional skin on the game, his intent is not to hurt VATSIM, and I keep that in mind when I don't agree with him (I think some of what he posted was valid, some might be but the appeal was emotional instead of fact-driven). But this was between he and Alan in the VATUSA forum, and it appeared here in near mid sentence. When it did it startled me in that since I didn't have any background on the conversation I was forced to go find it and catch up. But I am still left wondering the intent behind moving a partial conversation from the VATUSA forum to the VATSIM forum. We have seen this a few times a year and not just from VATUSA. I could [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume what it all means but I think I'll wait for the conversation to evolve, maybe someone will just tell us and we won't have to wonder. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:56 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 06:56 PM Post it here: http://forum.vatusa.us/ Alex, I've got something with a bit more exposure in mind. Thank you for the offer. Something that doesn't require a login and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]word... And there will be more names added. I guess it proves you have no intent to benefit the network. Enjoy. I'll post it there, if you wish, but this network is corrupt from the highest levels. It's over your head, now, Alex. It really is nothing personal. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:02 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:02 PM I'll post it there, if you wish, but this network is corrupt from the highest levels. It's over your head, now, Alex. It really is nothing personal. I was going to fix that and re-post it, but oh well I know it is nothing personal, but I'd like your efforts to go to good use. VATSIM wants people to discuss ideas for improvement, not dwell on past experiences that have ruined your view on the network. It appears from our phone call that you are upset at people who have nothing to do with VATUSA any longer, and for reasons that I'm currently working to resolve, yet you still want to spread it through the forums. Like I said, I just want you to effect some positive change and not get burned for it. Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:23 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:23 PM (edited) I'll post it there, if you wish, but this network is corrupt from the highest levels. It's over your head, now, Alex. It really is nothing personal. I was going to fix that and re-post it, but oh well I know it is nothing personal, but I'd like your efforts to go to good use. VATSIM wants people to discuss ideas for improvement, not dwell on past experiences that have ruined your view on the network. It appears from our phone call that you are upset at people who have nothing to do with VATUSA any longer, and for reasons that I'm currently working to resolve, yet you still want to spread it through the forums. Like I said, I just want you to effect some positive change and not get burned for it. 1. I was ASKED to write that post. I accepted and did so. I wrote a historical reference to give background and scope to the issues. I tried to answer the question: How did we get here? Trying to draw a line between historical reference, and dwelling on the past is going to come out crooked. There is no direct link, as far as I'm concerned. Where do you gather the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ertion that I have a "ruined view" of the network? I believe that I had all positive things to say about the network, and the people who had helped me get to where I am. How is that negative? 2. Why the VATSIM forum? Because the conversation initiated here. Real simple to me. 3. People can try to attack me for being p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about the network, and conveying that emotion into my posts. I was always taught that it was important to be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about what you did. How about a hobby? If you're not p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about what you do for fun, you ought hang it up and find something new. I am p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about this network, but have remained quiet for far too long. To remove my post, distract the people from the current conversation, and then attack me personally for being p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about this network, and having a desire to make things better is, well, SoP around here. I'm used to it, have seen it many times before (with me and others), and can deal with it. I knew what I was getting into when I spoke out. 4. The network is a yes-man, good ole' boy club. If anything outside of the normal rhetoric of 100% support for the BoG, or those on high is brought to the forefront, it is immediately condemned and shot down, much like my post was. It is then deflected to a personal attack, and that person is discredited. Then... Subtle threats of being suspended, or having a DCRM violation filed on you is levied, and either you sit down, and shut up, or walk away.... Or you ignore all of it as ranting rhetoric, and say what needs to be said.... So... discredit me for being "emotional". I've been a member for 7 years and never had as much as a complaint from anyone levied against me. I've never been suspended, or removed from a position. Let that speak for itself. Edited August 11, 2009 at 08:56 PM by Guest The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Johnston 890281 Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:33 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:33 PM I don't think that Bo or anyone else feel that VATSIM owes them anything. They just don't like to see it being sunk by incompetence and neglect. Considering that you don't have the slightest clue what's going on in this division, I'd love to see you back up some comments with fact. I believe Kyle's comment equally applies here. I strongly encourage you to take a look around our VATUSA forums and website to see for yourself what we have been doing and what our plans are. There is a topic in the main forum titled "State of VATUSA", describing most of what we have been working on. How about you actually read what I wrote before trying to burn me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:46 PM Posted August 11, 2009 at 07:46 PM Considering that you don't have the slightest clue what's going on in this division, I'd love to see you back up some comments with fact. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. Forgive me, but you sound like your predecessors. It seems like the state of VATUSA is a constant drama; there's very little that's been discussed in this thread that hasn't been mentioned dozens of times before. And in your defense, very little has been thrown in your direction that hasn't been lobbed at your predecessors. If I wanted VATUSA to become different, that would frighten me. I need to start with the obligatory caveat that I'm not a controller, unlikely to ever become one and therefore will never become a staff member at VATUSA or VATSIM. I suspect that this will provide grounds for a comment like the one I quoted to be lobbed at me, and I think that's part of the problem. (One of the commonest accusations around here is that a poster "doesn't have the facts", yet absolutely no one at any level of VATSIM goes out of their way to provide consistent, proactive information so that people have the facts. In a great many areas in VATSIM, obscurity is a key [Mod - Happy Thoughts]et since asymetrical information provides an advantage.) I'm just a VATUSA member, who looks around the Division. And what I see hasn't changed in several years. We still have a constant revolving door of volunteer staff; hardly a few days go by without an ARTCC or VATUSA requiring a new DATM, ATM, Event Coordinator, Webmaster or the like. It provides the illusion of constant turnover and flailing around. Every year there seems to be an ATM that gets fired and consequently an ARTCC thrown into chaos for several months. Every few months an ARTCC or VATUSA needs a new web site (I think VATUSA is on its third domain name in 18 months now). There's tremendous disparity in the quality of service provided by the 22 different ARTCCs. There's a constant group of people carping about how VATUSA is going down the tubes, an opposing group that complains that the former group "doesn't have all the facts" and VATUSA has never been better, and finally each time there's a new VATUSA1, there's a lot of self-congratulatory backslapping amongst the crowd and a conviction that this time, really, things are going to change for the better and we'll put any problems behind us. And yet we see the same issues. Yes, we make progress in some areas, and we fall back in others. But I'd strongly question if we haven't convinced ourselves that the people are the problem - when I think the process is broken. If you think that a little more communication with the ARTCC staffs and reviewing the GRP is going to solve all of the issues that VATUSA faces and that you can make the system work better than Gary, Dennis, Matt, Jeff and whoever else has been there, you're welcome to that belief. And in another 12 months we'll have another VATUSA1 who'll make an inspiring post in yet another new VATUSA web site about how they're going to do things differently than ol' Alex. You seem like a bright and capable man, and Andrew has impressed me with what he's done thus far. But you're by far not the first to start out this way, and a lack of execution or enthusiasm or competence isn't what drags people down. I think you'd be far better served by questioning the core [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umptions of VATUSA's structure, how things are done, how people are appointed and what positions you really need. But right now I'm hearing the same things that your predecessors have said, and I'm not expecting that the outcome is going to be different. It's up to everyone to determine whether that will be a good thing or not. Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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