more RNAV arrivals in store for KORD

[David Baker 1004102]

http://avn.faa.gov/acifp/2009051520201701003-ORD/FIG.pdf

http://avn.faa.gov/acifp/2009051520201701002-ORD/FIG.pdf

http://avn.faa.gov/acifp/2009051520201701001-ORD/FIG.pdf

 

In an interesting side note, I posted these same links to the procedures in development in the ZAU public forum.

My post was deleted.

[John Cierpial 1008209]

Thanks for the info for all of us US pilots. I'm sure the ZAU staff will do with it what they want.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

David,

 

Thanks for posting the information to keep us updated. Rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured your post won't be deleted here, and hopefully more and more pilots will try out the new procedures regardless of whether the facility supports them or not. It's surprising, because it reduces the workload of the controller substantially, yet they are viewed as a thorn by the ARTCC.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

i dont get why wouldnt an artcc support new procedures

 

does this mean if these are approved and do get published we wont be able to file them online?

 

this is kinda like going back to the old ZAU days where slow props werent allowed into ORD

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

David,

 

Thanks for posting the information to keep us updated. Rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured your post won't be deleted here, and hopefully more and more pilots will try out the new procedures regardless of whether the facility supports them or not. It's surprising, because it reduces the workload of the controller substantially, yet they are viewed as a thorn by the ARTCC.

 

Again, no facts...

 

I would expect more from a Supervisor. Perhaps it is time you kept your mouth shut.

 

1) David's post was not deleted, sorry to inform you that you have been lied to yet AGAIN!

 

2) Where has it EVER been said that we view this as a thorn? Way to feed the negativity there bub.

 

 

 

 

i dont get why wouldnt an artcc support new procedures

 

does this mean if these are approved and do get published we wont be able to file them online?

 

this is kinda like going back to the old ZAU days where slow props werent allowed into ORD

 

1) Where have you seen that vZAU will not support these procedures? Seriously, show me a single place where anyone with authority has stated anything of the sort.

 

2) You can file them all you like, just like all the pilots who file the PMM4, PMM5, SAYRS1, SAYRS2, and the PAITN1, even those who don't file ANY of them. You will be treated the same way, welcomed into the airspace.

 

Perhaps members who are NOT in a facility should worry about their OWN facility, and perhaps Supervisors should learn when to keep their mouths shut when they OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue as to what the real story is.

 

Have a great day...

 

Jason Vodnansky

vZAU ATM

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

time to take your meds again jason? can you see the difference between a question or an attack? is anyone who ask questions towards ZAU automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed to be attacking you?

 

take two, get back to us in the morning.

[Brad Littlejohn]

David,

 

Thanks for posting the information to keep us updated. Rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured your post won't be deleted here, and hopefully more and more pilots will try out the new procedures regardless of whether the facility supports them or not. It's surprising, because it reduces the workload of the controller substantially, yet they are viewed as a thorn by the ARTCC.

 

Again, no facts...

 

I would expect more from a Supervisor. Perhaps it is time you kept your mouth shut.

 

1) David's post was not deleted, sorry to inform you that you have been lied to yet AGAIN!

 

2) Where has it EVER been said that we view this as a thorn? Way to feed the negativity there bub.

 

 

 

 

i dont get why wouldnt an artcc support new procedures

 

does this mean if these are approved and do get published we wont be able to file them online?

 

this is kinda like going back to the old ZAU days where slow props werent allowed into ORD

 

1) Where have you seen that vZAU will not support these procedures? Seriously, show me a single place where anyone with authority has stated anything of the sort.

 

2) You can file them all you like, just like all the pilots who file the PMM4, PMM5, SAYRS1, SAYRS2, and the PAITN1, even those who don't file ANY of them. You will be treated the same way, welcomed into the airspace.

 

Perhaps members who are NOT in a facility should worry about their OWN facility, and perhaps Supervisors should learn when to keep their mouths shut when they OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue as to what the real story is.

 

Have a great day...

 

Jason Vodnansky

vZAU ATM

 

Careful, Jason.

 

As ATM, you need to realize that you do speak for, and pretty much are the figurehead and mouthpiece for your entire sector. You really do not want to have your entire sector suffer from lack of people flying in because of the attitudes brought out by the ATM of the sector.

 

I know that if I were on the receiving end of this tirade of yours, I definitely would not want to fly anywhere near your sector. If something like this comes from the LEADER of the sector, I couldn't fathom what would come from the rest of the staff and crew you have in the sector.

 

See how badly that cascades, from the position that you are in? You could easily make your entire crew look bad.

 

In other words, and please do not take this rudely, but it may be wise to confer with one's brain before saying something, regardless of who it is to, for whatever reasons that have transpired. Diplomacy is your friend.

 

BL.

Edited September 18, 2009 at 07:13 PM by Guest

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

Careful, Jason.

 

As ATM, you need to realize that you do speak for, and pretty much are the centerpiece/mouthpiece for your entire sector. you really do not want to have your entire sector suffer from lack of people flying in because of the attitudes brought out by the ATM of the sector.

 

I know that if I were on the receiving end of this tirade of yours, I definitely would not want to fly anywhere near your sector. If something like this comes from the LEADER of the sector, I couldn't fathom what would come from the rest of the staff and crew you have in the sector.

 

See how badly that cascades, from the position that you are in?

 

In other words, and please do not take this rudely, but it may be wise to confer with one's brain before saying something, regardless of who it is to, for whatever reasons that have transpired.

 

BL.

 

_________________

Brad "Hey, Smeghead!" Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

 

Not taken rudely at all...

 

Thought about what I was going to say, and stand by it.

 

People can choose to fly in the airspace or choose NOT to fly in the airspace. If they want someone to blame, I will gladly be that person.

 

Why do people always [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume I am on some "tirade"? A bunch of people can claim something about which they have no idea, be corrected, and the person correcting them is on a "tirade"?

 

Listen, I understand what you are saying, but please understand as well, that the "Chicago 7" is alive and well, and this facility is no longer going to lay back as we have with nearly 18 months of their [Mod - lovely stuff]. So they leave the facility, and still continue to cause us issues. Hell, I've been claiming that Bailey was a victim in this whole thing since day 1, but that seems to get left out of every conversation. How conveinient...

 

I have the docomeentation to prove it, I hope they have enough to defend it, they may need it in the near future...

 

Have a nice day,

Jason Vodnansky

[Gary Millsaps 830104]

Well, it looks as if once again, the hornet's nest was poked, prodded then out and out whacked...the hornet responded as is his nature.

 

Lesson learned? I certainly hope so.

 

Back to business....

[Brad Littlejohn]

Not taken rudely at all...

 

Thought about what I was going to say, and stand by it.

 

People can choose to fly in the airspace or choose NOT to fly in the airspace. If they want someone to blame, I will gladly be that person.

 

Why do people always [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume I am on some "tirade"?

 

Quite plainly, Jason, when you say something like:

 

I would expect more from a Supervisor. Perhaps it is time you kept your mouth shut.

 

Perhaps members who are NOT in a facility should worry about their OWN facility, and perhaps Supervisors should learn when to keep their mouths shut when they OBVIOUSLY don't have a clue as to what the real story is.

 

I'm not trying to defend anybody or will even begin to figure out the whole back story to whatever has happened (nor do I want to), but when someone in such a position as ATM is telling someone else that they should keep their mouth shut, it really speaks a lot for the attitude of not only the ATM but the entire sector that ATM is the lead of.

 

In other words, if this is the public face of vZAU, then who would want to deal with anyone in that sector? As ATM, as you know, you and your FAB are the leaders and PR for your sector. Telling someone that they should keep their mouths shut is really bad PR for anyone, let alone you and your staff. You easily could have said what you wanted to say in a better, diplomatic way, and this would be a non-issue. But I certainly would not want to deal with anyone in any sector who told me that I should keep my mouth shut. I would avoid them at all costs, let others know what has happened, and have them draw their own conclusion to visit or avoid your sector.

 

This is why Diplomacy is your friend.

 

BL.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Wow...

 

Jason you'll have a PM shortly

 

My comments were more toward the effect of the comments I've seen in the forums and from controllers. I heard many complaints from the staff in ZAU that there are too many procedures and they are too difficult to learn, let alone stay current with. Maybe I misunderstood the context of the comments being made, granted they were many months ago. I was of the understanding that the amount of procedures (DP/STAR, etc..) was hurting the training department, or something to that effect, from the conversations I had with you guys. If I'm wrong then I apologize and gladly stand corrected.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Wow...

 

Jason you'll have a PM shortly

 

My comments were more toward the effect of the comments I've seen in the forums and from controllers. I heard many complaints from the staff in ZAU that there are too many procedures and they are too difficult to learn, let alone stay current with. Maybe I misunderstood the context of the comments being made, granted they were many months ago. I was of the understanding that the amount of procedures (DP/STAR, etc..) was hurting the training department, or something to that effect, from the conversations I had with you guys. If I'm wrong then I apologize.

 

I seriously hope they don't think there are too many procedures and are difficult to learn.. If that's the case, they should look at LAS, where every entry point into and out of that area has both a non-RNAV and RNAV (sometimes more than one RNAV) procedure, and that's just for one airport! The non-RNAV procedures allow for service to the other 2 civilian airports in the area, but off the top of my head just for LAS alone, there are a total of 17 procedures used (8 STARs, evenly split between non-RNAV and RNAV, and 9 departures, 3 of which are non-RNAV).

 

Going off of NACO, KORD alone only has 6 STARs, and 1 SID. If those are too much and too difficult to learn, other places, like ATL, SLC, PHX, et. al. would be torture. I severely hope this is not the case as well.

 

BL.

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

Wow...

 

Jason you'll have a PM shortly

 

My comments were more toward the effect of the comments I've seen in the forums and from controllers. I heard many complaints from the staff in ZAU that there are too many procedures and they are too difficult to learn, let alone stay current with. Maybe I misunderstood the context of the comments being made, granted they were many months ago. I was of the understanding that the amount of procedures (DP/STAR, etc..) was hurting the training department, or something to that effect, from the conversations I had with you guys. If I'm wrong then I apologize and gladly stand corrected.

Alex, as a student in ZAU, I find it very insulting that you claim there are to many procedures that are too difficult to learn or stay current with. I have no issues staying current or learning the current procedures as is, nor does any other student I talk to.

 

In response to Jason's comments, you really have to know him well to understand the nature in which he posts and speaks. I can understand his frustration to comments like "they are viewed as a thorn by the ARTCC." when that is completely false. Also, "does this mean if these are approved and do get published we wont be able to file them online?

 

this is kinda like going back to the old ZAU days where slow props werent allowed into ORD" that is a completely obsurd comment because there is no facts that we will not support the new procedures. In fact, I heard straight from Jason that THEY WILL be supported.

 

"time to take your meds again jason?" that is certainly an inappropriate comment as well. "is anyone who ask questions towards ZAU automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed to be attacking you?" NOPE. "take two, get back to us in the morning." again, another snide, inappropriate comment.

 

"of this tirade of yours" again, you need to know Jason enough before you make comments like this, he is CERTAINLY NOT on a tirade, nor is he trying to insult anyone.

 

Brad, again where are you getting your facts? From something Alex said? I don't know who he's talked to, but refer to my first comment!

Edited September 18, 2009 at 08:39 PM by Guest

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Alex, as a student in ZAU, I find it very insulting that you claim there are to many procedures that are too difficult to learn or stay current with. I have no issues staying current or learning the current procedures as is, nor does any other student I talk to.

 

I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth. I stated that from the controllers and staff who I have talked to, they claim that Chicago has too many procedures which seem to impact the training department and retention of information. Some of this came directly from a phone call I had with Ron Lemke a few months ago, where he specifically brings up the many procedures ZAU has. Like I said, maybe I'm taking these comments out of context, but I don't know any other way to understand them.

 

Ron was quite clear that it is difficult to support the new procedures when pilots still file the old ones. Coming from a busy ARTCC myself, and remaining up to date on each facility while I was Director, I don't quite see the heartache it seems to cause him (or ZAU if he was speaking for the ARTCC). Brad mentioned ZLA and I'm familiar with ZMA personally, I find the changes in ZAU to be much less of an issue than some other ARTCCs. The conversations I had with Ron don't seem to reflect the sentiments in your message, Nick, but again I will stand corrected if I misunderstood his statements.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

love the sidekicks.

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

:lol: love the sidekicks.

Sidekicks, LOL! It's not like JV asked me to come in here and post my opinion or anything. I was just browsing around, saw this thread, and decided to post the student's side of the story.

 

Also, Alex. Just talking to the instructor (haven't talked to our brand new guy about it), the amount of procedures is kind of small and not challenging for the students or negatively impacting our training department. I don't know who Ron was talking for or about, but if it was true then, it has certainly changed.

[Antonio King 1085967]

:lol: love the sidekicks.

 

If I could +rep you, I would right about now. And not just for the truth containing quote above.

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

Talk about LOLable subjects, I think it's pretty funny how the guys who decided to leave our facility have come back once JV has come back and are trying to start more issues.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

:lol: love the sidekicks.

Sidekicks, LOL! It's not like JV asked me to come in here and post my opinion or anything. I was just browsing around, saw this thread, and decided to post the student's side of the story.

 

Also, Alex. Just talking to the instructor (haven't talked to our brand new guy about it), the amount of procedures is kind of small and not challenging for the students or negatively impacting our training department. I don't know who Ron was talking for or about, but if it was true then, it has certainly changed.

 

Thanks Nick, it's possible he was referring to previous events. Who knows, and frankly it doesn't matter to me either way.

[David Baker 1004102]

Listen, I understand what you are saying, but please understand as well, that the "Chicago 7" is alive and well, and this facility is no longer going to lay back as we have with nearly 18 months of their [Mod - lovely stuff]. So they leave the facility, and still continue to cause us issues. Hell, I've been claiming that Bailey was a victim in this whole thing since day 1, but that seems to get left out of every conversation. How conveinient...

 

All right, hold on a second there.

 

Starting issues?

 

I posted links to the procedures, because I figured some of the controllers at ZAU may be interested in seeing them.

 

I don't understand how that's coming around your ARTCC trying to stir stuff up, or trying to dish out that lovely stuff that got modded out of your post.

 

My post may not have been deleted, but there's no evidence of it in the public forums. May have made a mistake, but certainly did not lie.

 

Also, what the heck is the Chicago 7?

[David Baker 1004102]

This post was a mispost. Nicks post immediately following was referencing this post.

It was just a quote of an earlier post without any comment from me.

 

I can see why it might have been confusing.

 

 

 

EDIT: everthing.

Edited September 18, 2009 at 09:36 PM by Guest

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

David,

 

Thanks for posting the information to keep us updated. Rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured your post won't be deleted here, and hopefully more and more pilots will try out the new procedures regardless of whether the facility supports them or not. It's surprising, because it reduces the workload of the controller substantially, yet they are viewed as a thorn by the ARTCC.

David, I don't know what you're trying to prove by this post, but as JV and I have stated - it is not viewed as a thorn by ZAU, and we WILL use the procedures if they are even p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed. As of now, they're unapproved draft procedures.

[David Baker 1004102]

Hi Nick,

 

I'm not try to prove anything. Merely posting links to the procedures.

 

I never claimed procedures are a thorn in anybody's side, but I will now. New procedures can be a pain at any ARTCC due to pilots filing them and not being able to fly them.

 

I'm fully aware that they are draft procedures, maybe I should have made that more clear in my OP, but that's why the thread title says "in store". The fact of the matter is that RNAV arrivals are coming to ZAU whether it's these or others.

 

I just thought that people who enjoy this hobby might find them interesting. That's all.

 

The post you quoted is not mine.

 

Cheers.

[David Baker 1004102]

Ah, I see what happened. I was going to post something but did not, I don't know why the quote is still there.

I'll edit out that post.

[Brad Littlejohn]

 

"of this tirade of yours" again, you need to know Jason enough before you make comments like this, he is CERTAINLY NOT on a tirade, nor is he trying to insult anyone.

 

Brad, again where are you getting your facts? From something Alex said? I don't know who he's talked to, but refer to my first comment!

 

Nicholas,

 

I'm getting what I am saying from just the posts in this thread; nothing more, nothing less. I haven't had any conversations with Alex, or anyone in this thread. But like I said, what brings me into this is the wording from Jason, which may be fine for him and for you, and yes, I guess I must 'get to know him', but wording like that isn't really appropriate for the ATM of a sector. That is my point. I'd say the same thing to Ian Elchitz if he said the same thing. Yes, I know IE, but I also know that he wouldn't use that type of wording anywhere here, to anyone here, regardless of whatever position they may or may not have.

 

Imagine if Alex were new, and Jason just told him that perhaps he should shut his mouth. Better yet, imagine if I had just come back from a 3 year break, and transferred into ZAU. My ATM saying something like that would not give me a warm fuzzy for looking forward to doing work with him. The ATM isn't just the head of a sector, but also a leader of a group that new controllers and pilots can look up to. Like I said, if I'm to look up to someone, and words like that are the example, I'm not in for a good time.

 

I don't care about past issues. That is where they should remain, IMHO. I don't have an agenda for ZAU in any way; there are a lot more positive things I can do and affect in ZLA to not give it a second glance. But one in the position of ATM should be able to set the example of who they are and how they speak for their sector. Saying that someone should perhaps keep their mouth shut really isn't setting that example, n'est-ce pas?

 

BL.