Karl Kornel 964857 Posted October 25, 2009 at 04:31 AM Posted October 25, 2009 at 04:31 AM Hello all! I hope I am not being too annoying by submitting so many posts! I am submitting this post because I am seeing some confusing behavior with how ES is processing a multi-transition STAR, and I was hoping someone could explain what I am doing wrong. Here is the information: AWE1631 was flying from KIND to KCLT. I was online as IND_APP, and IND_TWR was also online. AWE1631 filed, and was cleared for, the following route: DAWNN3 IIU VXV JOHNS2 Of course, I have the DAWNN3 SID in my .ese file. I also have the JOHNS2 STAR in my .ese file: Even though KCLT is in Atlanta ARTCC, some waypoints are inside Indianapolis (Indy) ARTCC, and I do not want false RAM alerts. Here are the relevent sections of the .ese file: SID:KIND:05L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:05R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:23R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:23L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:32:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:14:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN BWG SID:KIND:05L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:05R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:23R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:23L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:32:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:14:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN IIU SID:KIND:05L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS SID:KIND:05R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS SID:KIND:23R:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS SID:KIND:23L:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS SID:KIND:32:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS SID:KIND:14:DAWNN3:VHP DAWNN MYS (I wrote the DAWNN3 configuration before I was told that I could leave the runway section blank.) STAR:KCLT:05:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:18L:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:18R:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:23:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:36L:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:36R:JOHNS2:FLM THOOR ATLSS HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:05:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:18L:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:18R:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:23:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:36L:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:36R:JOHNS2:HVQ HMV GIBSS SPWAY SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:05:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:18L:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:18R:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:23:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE STAR:KCLT:36L:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK STAR:KCLT:36R:JOHNS2:VXV FLABB PENSK BURLS WUDDS RCHRD SWENK SHINE JOHNS FOSSE CEDOX DOSBE IKICO PACOK (As you can see, I need the runways to be defined for the JOHNS2 STAR) When the aircraft departed from runway 23L, I sent him direct DAWNN and entered "DAWNN" into the scratchpad, because VHP is north-west and I did not want to turn him north when DAWNN, and his destination, are south (well, south-east). ES accepted the special scratchpad entry with no complaints. Here is the thing that really confuses me: I use a modified form of the Matias tag format (I added some items to the Untagged type). When I left-clicked on his cruise altitude, and again when I used the .am command to show the waypoints, ES told me that his route's waypoints were KIND..VHP..DAWNN..IIU..FLM..THOOR..ATLSS.. and so on to KCLT. Essentially, ES was thinking that the flight was going to fly the FLM transition of the JOHNS2 arrival. So, I am wondering, what did I do wrong in my .ese file, to make ES think that AWE1631 was flying FLM.JOHNS2 when he was really flying VXV.JOHNS2? A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephan Boerner 945550 Posted October 25, 2009 at 06:29 AM Posted October 25, 2009 at 06:29 AM Well, this is an old issue too, but I am not sure if it has been corrected yet ... obviously it hasn't in the public but I am actually not sure about the state in the beta. http://www.euroscope.hu/Mantis/view.php?id=350 ES does not support the way transitions are handled in the US. You have the JOHNS2 star for every runway three times, probably because there are three differend transitions for it (FLM, HVQ, VXV). For ES the STAR is just based on the airport, the runway and the name of the STAR, and after that it picks the first match in the ESE. So in your case ES will always pick the FLM transition, because that is the first match for KCLT with JOHNS2. You have to remember, that transitions are completely different used in the US, than they are used in Europe, and ES was developed based on knowledge about the european way. So this still has to be adapted, and no, that's not scheduled for the upcoming release. Stephan Boerner VATEUD - ATC Training Director EuroScope Board of Designers | GVCCS Beta Tester EuroScope Quick Start Guide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted November 2, 2009 at 09:09 AM Author Posted November 2, 2009 at 09:09 AM Hello! I did want to respond on this issue, so I have been taking the week to think things over. ----- First, I now understand what you mean about the handling of the multiple matching STARs in EuroScope 3.0a. That description does exactly match the behavior I saw. Unfortunately, there is not just one problem with current behavior, there are two: STARs in the US can have multiple transitions, converging into a single route (normally before the approach border). For example, the OXI4 STAR to KORD has multiple transitions. Some routes join a STAR after the transition point. For example, the preferred route from KIND to KORD is KIND INDY2.VHP OXI.OXI4 KORD, even though OXI is not a transition point for OXI4. So, I do not think the current behavior needs to be changed too much! For example, the following procedure might work: Use the existing procedure to build a list of STAR lines (essentially, the current procedure). Look at the waypoint in the FP that comes directly before the STAR name. This is the transition waypoint. Remove all STAR lines that do not have this transition waypoint as part of the route. If there are no STAR lines left, ignore the STAR name (there is a route problem). Otherwise, go to the next step. Look through the modified STAR lines. If the first waypoint of a STAR line matches the transition waypoint, use that STAR line, and we are done. Otherwise, go to the next step. Remove the first waypoint from each STAR line. Go to Step 4. For example, let's look at this procedure with the following code from the vZID .ese file (my dev. version): STAR:KCVG::CINCE6:APE BOWRR ORLEE HEDEE JARSO TIGRR CHARZ CVG STAR:KCVG::CINCE6:CTW APE BOWRR ORLEE HEDEE JARSO TIGRR CHARZ CVG STAR:KORD::OXI4:BSV KUKEY KULHY SPANN WATSN OXI STYLE STAR:KORD::OXI4:DJB KULHY SPANN WATSN OXI STYLE STAR:KORD::OXI4:FWA SPANN WATSN OXI STYLE Example 1: Let us look at someone flying the route KABE LRP J6 FLIRT J110 LEJOY CTW.CINCE6 KCVG In this case, after Step 1, both STAR lines will still remain. In Step 2, the transition waypoint is identified as CTW. In Step 3, we remove the first STAR line, because it does not have CTW in the route. In Step 4, there is only one STAR line left, and CTW is the first waypoint in the route, so we are now done. The full route becomes KABE LRP SAAME FLIRT KIPPI LARRI GRAHM VINSE LEJOY CTW APE BOWRR ORLEE HEDEE JARSO TIGRR CHARZ CVG KCVG. Example 2: The route is KIND INDY2.VHP OXI.OXI4 KORD In this case, after Step 1, all 3 STAR lines will still remain. In Step 2, the transition waypoint is identified as OXI. In Step 3, all 3 STAR lines still remain. In Step 4, we see that there are no STAR lines where the first waypoint is OXI. We then go to Step 5, where we remove the first waypoint from each STAR line, and go back to Step 4. This repeats until we get... STAR:KORD::OXI4:SPANN WATSN OXI STYLE STAR:KORD::OXI4:WATSN OXI STYLE STAR:KORD::OXI4:OXI STYLE We looped enough times to remove the first 3 waypoints from each STAR line. Back in Step 4, we now have a STAR line where the first waypoint matches the transition waypoint, so we are done. The full route becomes KIND VHP OXI STYLE KORD. Please let me know if there appear to be any problems with this suggestion! ----- Next, I need to think about how this will affect the ARTCCs in the US that are looking at EuroScope. At this point, I know that this is not really a problem for APP or DEP positions: STARs typically converge to a single route before the border of the approach airspace, so although APP might see a RAM alert, that would be gone by the time APP takes control. Also it is not a problem for TWR, GND, or DEL, because their visibility range would be too low. Unfortunately, I think this will be a problem for CTR controllers. It means that every plane, on a STAR with multiple transitions, will have a chance to generate false RAM alerts. It also means that the route line drawing, and the waypoint display in the .am command, will not be correct. At this point, I can only think of one workaround, which is to use the scratchpad to tell ES the pilot is going direct to some point later in the STAR. That, however, can cause other RAM alerts (as the pilot to turns to waypoints where ES thinks he is going direct), and it could cause coordination problems if APP or another CTR is online. You can also remove (or comment out) the STARs in the .ese file, but this has the same problems as telling ES the pilot is going direct to the airport. Unless there is a way to work around the problem, I am no longer sure if I can suggest EuroScope for use on CTR, because of those RAM alerts. However, I am not a C1, so I need any US CTR controllers to tell me how this has affected them. I also really hope that somebody can point out a workaround that I missed! A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Barker 1202744 Posted March 19, 2018 at 07:51 AM Posted March 19, 2018 at 07:51 AM First, I am sorry for reviving an old tread like this. I am curious if there was any progress on this. I searched the forums and release notes with no information on this. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sachin Gnath Posted March 19, 2018 at 11:56 AM Posted March 19, 2018 at 11:56 AM First, I am sorry for reviving an old tread like this. I am curious if there was any progress on this. I searched the forums and release notes with no information on this. Thanks Hi, There is no progress. The only way to reflect SID/STAR Transition is by putting a symbol in your ESE file, this is how we do it in Indian airspace. Example: SID ANOL1A Transition AAU in your ESE File you will have to name this SID like this [sIDSSTARS] SID:VABB:27:ANOL1A_AAU:MB364 ANOLI XOPAL MB373 MB365 SEKVI KAKPO MB366 AAU Hope this helps. Regards, S G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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