Special Provision for Voice CTAF ( NYC SFRA Event )

[Norman Blackburn]

Ed,

 

The FSInn radar uses the traffic it sees in much the same way as you can look out the window or a TCAS guage works. The Servinfo et all feed is merely a snapshot; the traffic doesn't move nor will it unless both the software and data are refreshed, the latter which is only every 2 minutes.

 

The same feed is utilised by all.

 

I note Ross has also replied in this vein whilst I was typing.

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Ross/Norman,

 

I now have a clearer understanding of the delay issue and the implication for see-and-avoid. Now, is it safe to say the the 5-second feed counts as a "connection", whilst the delay-fed tools do not?

[Ross Carlson]

Ross/Norman,

 

I now have a clearer understanding of the delay issue and the implication for see-and-avoid. Now, is it safe to say the the 5-second feed counts as a "connection", whilst the delay-fed tools do not?

 

Yes, that's safe to say. VATSpy and the like pull their data via the web. They make connections to VATSIMs web servers. They do not connect to the network of FSD servers that pilot and controller clients connect to.

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Ross/Norman,

 

I now have a clearer understanding of the delay issue and the implication for see-and-avoid. Now, is it safe to say the the 5-second feed counts as a "connection", whilst the delay-fed tools do not?

 

Yes, that's safe to say. VATSpy and the like pull their data via the web. They make connections to VATSIMs web servers. They do not connect to the network of FSD servers that pilot and controller clients connect to.

Drat . . . the "one connection" rule eliminates the option/mode of repointing the tools to the FSD servers for faster updates.

[joke]Edit ... Oh wait I always thought we should be allowed two for redundancy [/joke]

 

So what is needed are options for other Simulator/Client pairs. Got it now.

 

If such options existed hypothetically, I wonder whether there would be other considerations for the hearing impaired, or if such a 5-second delayed visual display would be sufficient for an SFRA Event?

Edited November 22, 2009 at 05:17 PM by Guest

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

if theres any way to come up with a way that allows people to use voice on any unicom freq and at the same time not exclude those who are not able to use voice whether it be because of software or physical impairment, im all for it. but the way its setup now, i dont see that possible personally. there would have to be changes to one of the clients, squawkbox, which is no longer being worked on, and there would have to be other changes made across the network, all so people can pretty much hear themselves talking.

 

just my .02

 

i can just hear the arguments now on the channel, literally.

 

i remember in the old SATCO days we DID have a voice channel which turned into a personal chat room for many and a place for those looking for extra attention.

 

these rooms would have to be heavily moderated in order to work. can you imagine what some kids parents would complain about the minute they hear someone cursing on the frequency? only a mod would be able to handle that situation as theres no way a normal user can prove someone else was misusing the channel on theyre own.

 

in a normal world, we wouldnt worry about that type of stuff, but we all know thats not the case.

 

you can see how many issues pop up. its not just about 1 single item on the list, theres lots of others that come with it

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Ernesto,

 

I agree with much of what you said in general.

 

However, the focus here is on one specific frequency, in a very small airspace, single specific location of the world, for the duration of one Special Event, and all the meanwhile remaining inclusive of a specific group of members.

[Norman Blackburn]

Ed,

 

What of the member who decides to fly into the target area and knows nothing of this special event?

[Alex Evins 976213]

As of now New York ARTCC has no plans to host any type of event in the Hudson River or East River Exclusions/SFRA. We feel that it is inappropriate to celebrate new airspace developed in the aftermath an unfortunate tragedy. For more information on operating in this airspace visit http://www.nyartcc.org/bigapple/showthread.php?7816-MBI-New-York-Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-B-Airspace-Hudson-River-and-East-River-Exclusion-and-Special-Flight-Rules-Area-SFRA

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Ed,

 

What of the member who decides to fly into the target area and knows nothing of this special event?

My thing to do would be to help the guy out. Change to 122.8 and give him the SFRA CTAF 123.05 to switch to and welcome him to the Event.

 

As far as that goes, any Event ATC on line would have advance visible notice and could certainly do the same, and even send a "Contact Me". And from a practical standpoint, that individual could either be a trained ATC or Supervisor silently "monitoring" 123.05, because the channel needs to be opened somehow, but not necessarily controlled, right?

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

As of now New York ARTCC has no plans to host any type of event in the Hudson River or East River Exclusions/SFRA. We feel that it is inappropriate to celebrate new airspace developed in the aftermath an unfortunate tragedy. For more information on operating in this airspace visit http://www.nyartcc.org/bigapple/showthread.php?7816-MBI-New-York-Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-B-Airspace-Hudson-River-and-East-River-Exclusion-and-Special-Flight-Rules-Area-SFRA

So be it.

 

And just for the record, the real interest and lure, not mine alone, of the scenic corridor goes back decades, not months. Can I ask you a rhetoric question, whether the Helicopter Tours have all ceased business operations too?

[Alex Evins 976213]

Although that does not mean we don't invite pilots to come and fly in that airspace. We are having a GA/helicopter event next Sunday in which we anticipate many aircraft traversing the airspace in and around Manhattan. I invite you to come and fly in the event.

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Although that does not mean we don't invite pilots to come and fly in that airspace. We are having a GA/helicopter event next Sunday in which we anticipate many aircraft traversing the airspace in and around Manhattan. I invite you to come and fly in the event.

Alex,

 

Do you have a link available to this Event with times and further details, etc...?

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Back on topic,

 

We left off this discussion with a hypothetical question whether having a real-time “TIS like” simulator/client visual display gauge would be an acceptable solution for the hearing impaired as an alternative to receiving voice CTAF position reports (essentially “unannounced traffic”) in the NYC SFRA.

 

Who knows whether this question has been researched for this particular based scenario, and whether a negative decision was reached based on XYZ? If XYZ exist and still have merit in an SFRA Event then we have reached the logical conclusion of this topic.

 

Otherwise, to me, it seems worthy of further discussion. And, then we have the additional task of discovering the existence of those “TIS like” gauge tools for simulator/clients other than the MSFS/FSInn combination.

[Stefan Hueneburg 1062056]

Hi,

 

We left off this discussion with a hypothetical question whether having a real-time “TIS like” simulator/client visual display gauge would be an acceptable solution for the hearing impaired as an alternative to receiving voice CTAF position reports (essentially “unannounced traffic”) in the NYC SFRA.

 

One could rise the question if any announcement on a UNICOM or CTAF frequency can be enforced by regulation. What happens with a pilot, which doesn't announce himself on UNICOM? Is there any supervisor watching pilots taking of from a noncontrolled airport? Probably not, so you can't rely on UNICOM anyway, therefore see and avoid applies.

 

With that deduction one could say, it is not unfair to hearing impaired or deaf people to enable people without that disability to have fun on a "advisory" only frequency, or is it?

 

Stefan

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

One could rise the question if any announcement on a UNICOM or CTAF frequency can be enforced by regulation. What happens with a pilot, which doesn't announce himself on UNICOM? Is there any supervisor watching pilots taking of from a noncontrolled airport? Probably not, so you can't rely on UNICOM anyway, therefore see and avoid applies.

 

With that deduction one could say, it is not unfair to hearing impaired or deaf people to enable people without that disability to have fun on a "advisory" only frequency, or is it?

Stefan,

 

The FAA has issued an amendment to 14 CFR part 93 Establishing the “Special Flight Rules Area”, and Defining operational procedures in those areas. I don’t know what happens in the case of non-compliance, but absolutely I agree with you that in the SFRA, see-and-avoid continues to apply.

 

While I do not consider a visual display to be exactly on par with audible reports, the real crux of the question here is whether it is a suitable and agreeable substitute for everyone which allows for the inclusive participation of the hearing impaired.

 

Mostly though, I believe the wholesome “fun” to be realized is in the actual enjoyment of flying the congested airspace during an SFRA Event, regardless of the actual manner in which near-by traffic is “detected”.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

ive already addressed that to the sup heads on the network the answer i got directly from the top was that all traffic on VATSIM not under ATC are supposed to be monitoring the unicom frequency, but there is no requirement to transmit. however if you run into someone and ruin theyre flight, its your fault, and theyres if they also did not announce, if someone should decide to complain to a sup.

 

ofcourse if they see you comin and decide to jump infront of you anyway, well, chalk it up for another bubble headed move

[Brendan Samson 1070087]

As of now New York ARTCC has no plans to host any type of event in the Hudson River or East River Exclusions/SFRA. We feel that it is inappropriate to celebrate new airspace developed in the aftermath an unfortunate tragedy. For more information on operating in this airspace visit http://www.nyartcc.org/bigapple/showthread.php?7816-MBI-New-York-Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-B-Airspace-Hudson-River-and-East-River-Exclusion-and-Special-Flight-Rules-Area-SFRA

 

Though it was a very tragic accident, VATSIM is primarily an educational tool for people to learn about aviation. I think that such an event would be a great way to educate pilots, who would be flying in the airspace anyway, about the new rules.

[Alex Evins 976213]

Although that does not mean we don't invite pilots to come and fly in that airspace. We are having a GA/helicopter event next Sunday in which we anticipate many aircraft traversing the airspace in and around Manhattan. I invite you to come and fly in the event.

Alex,

 

Do you have a link available to this Event with times and further details, etc...?

 

http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1570

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

Thanks to all for their interest in these ideas! Great input and responses shed some light on this subject for me.

 

I encourage everyone to participate in NY ARTCC’s Event this Saturday,

and explore ZNY's heliports and the new New York Special Flight Rules Area!

 

Good Teamwork!

[Kevin Kan]

Why would you need ATC for an event along the Hudson? Since it's uncontrolled you just need a bunch of pilots flying through the airspace.

[Brendan Samson 1070087]

For this kind of event, the flying wouldn't be limited to just the area between the GWB and the Verrazano. It would be nice to have some of the local airports such as Teteboro, Essex, Morristown, and Republic. Also if any pilots wanted to fly any of the VFR "channels" around NY where clearance into the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo would be mandatory, ATC would be a realistic touch.

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

The emphasis is not just strictly on the NYC SFRA, but also in arriving and departing the SFRA area as well. In addition to what Bendan said, the Skyline Route over the Hudson is controlled by both EWR_TWR and LGA_TWR. Would kinda want to include these surrounding areas for all their complexity as well, and create a healthy mix of both VFR and IFR Traffic in one tight area.

 

I'm hoping to dial in this ZNY Event on Saturday and give it a go.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

Here's a free FAA course on the specifics of the SFRA, which may come in handy. Check it out quickly, as Kyle might delete this post soon (he apparently believes that it's not my place to try to help anyone):

 

FAA link removed - KWR 810181

 

It only requires a few minutes. Apparently if you are a RW pilot you can also get WINGS credit for taking it.

 

Here is the VATSIM NY ARTCC link to the correct information - KWR

http://www.nyartcc.org/bigapple/showthread.php?7816-MBI-New-York-Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-B-Airspace-Hudson-River-and-East-River-Exclusion-and-Special-Flight-Rules-Area-SFRA

[Will Stewart]

~~~~

Edited September 7, 2021 at 07:36 PM by Will Stewart
vatsim's insistence on using real names means my vatsim posts are effectively doxxing me forever.

[Bill Franklin]

This discussion is very interesting. Now I don't have the experience that you guys have, but I had read before about text and unicom and didn't really understand it. Is there a large amount of deaf pilots on here? I'm curious what the ratio is. I'm not trying to be cold but that is a really big concession by Vatsim as a whole for a small amount of people, that is of course if it is a small amount. What I mean by that is think about how many pilots use unicom ever day that aren't deaf vs the one's that are. I hope no one takes this the wrong way, this is the basis of this conversation, this is why I'm curious.