By Randy Tyndall 1087023
#501174 Probably should post this in the North America Thread, but as a global group, lots of pilots fly from JFK on VATSIM, so I chose here instead.

I flew out of JFK to KIAD today without benefit of ATC. The winds favored the 22's so I chose 22R for departure. I grabbed a route off flightaware from this morning in a comparable jet that was RBV.HYPER6 which meant, as far as I could see, the KENNEDY3 departure.

However, taking off from 22R sends you to the GATEWAY CLIMB which is only assigned (I assume by ATC) from 2200 to 0700 local. Here are the notes I took from the charts...there are three pages and not all the notes come from the same page...

TAKEOFF RUNWAYS 22L/R: Climb heading 225°, thence . . . .

* GATEWAY CLIMB: Climbing right turn to intercept the JFK R-232 until 5 DME, then turn left heading 220°, thence . . . .

. . . . via RADAR vectors to assigned route/fix, maintain 5000.

* To be assigned during the period of 2200-0700 local.


Time of day notwithstanding, the GATEWAY CLIMB proceeds to DIXIE and there is a note on page one of the procedure that says...

DIXIE departures expect vectors to JFK R-222


So, I have three questions.

One, is the KENNEDY3 a viable departure during the day from 0700 to 2200 when the winds favor the 22's? If so, and the GATEWAY CLIMB is only used from 2200 to 0700, what, if any, CLIMB do you use to get to the Robbinsville VOR?

Two, since neither JFK radial 232, heading 220, or JFK radial 222 will get me to RBV, thus the need for vectors from ATC, if I am in the 2200 to 0700 window and use the GATEWAY CLIMB when ATC is not online at which reasonable point should I start "vectoring myself"? In other words, will I typically proceed all the way to DIXIE, then to either RNGRR or RBV? Is RNGRR even a factor since it is really on the BREEZY PT CLIMB (which looks to me like it terminates at RBV...my intended fix)?

Three, If ATC assigned DEPARTURE PROCEDURES in the US like ATC does in the majority of Europe, what DP would I likely expect to be assigned if the winds favored the 22's and I filed for KJFK to KIAD with one waypoint as I saw on Flightaware, "RBV"?

Sorry for my confusion, but this is why I usually only fly into or out of JFK when ATC is online...to hold my hand so to speak, but I need to know for my own education for when ATC is not online, like this morning.

Randy
By Sebastien Bartosz 1053857
#501180 1) You would climb via heading 225 thence... That is a seperate procedure than the gateway climb.

2) It says DIXIE departures expect vectors to JFK R-222. DIXIE is a different departure gate than RBV. You would just fly heading 225 until ATC vectored you. From JFK area to RBV you cross LGA airspace, which stops at 10000, so depending how fast you climb, a direct RBV passing abeam Sandy Hook-ish, would probably suffice. (Trying to imagine this through memory of what the video map looks like, I might be off a tad.)

3) For RBV off of 22s, I would file JFK3 or DEEZZ4


Sorry for the brevity of this message, Im at work. Might have to proof read later.
By Randy Tyndall 1087023
#501186 Sebastien,

Thank you. I never really looked at the chart as two "kinda" separate procedures off the 22's, but I think I understand what you are saying...

Taking off from 22L or 22R climb heading 225 degrees, thence...(either)

a) * GATEWAY CLIMB: Climbing right turn to intercept the JFK R-232 until 5 DME, then turn left heading 220° (If assigned this climb by ATC)...(or)

b) via RADAR vectors to assigned route/fix, maintain 5000

...but only one or the other as they are two separate and exclusive sets of instructions for 22L/R departures. Makes sense.

The only reason I threw in DIXIE and RNGRR is because I was confused and thought the narrative was telling me to make an initial 225 degree climb then a climbing right turn to intercept the JFK 232 radial then left to follow the GATEWAY CLIMB to DIXIE.

Makes perfect sense now, if I have understood what you wrote.

Thanks again.

Randy
By Bradley Grafelman 1242018
#501187
Randy Tyndall 1087023 wrote:...but only one or the other as they are two separate and exclusive sets of instructions for 22L/R departures.

Not really; the last set also applies to the Gateway climb (hence why the end of the Gateway climb instructions contain "thence . . . .").

So, (b) above is always applicable, but whether or not you do (a) depends whether you're assigned (or, if ATC is offline, pretending you were assigned :) ) the "Gateway climb" or nothing else at all (e.g. just the "Kennedy Three departure").
By Randy Tyndall 1087023
#501190 Okay, so can I assume there are...I'm gonna say this wrong no matter how hard I try not to...two separate departure procedures (see, I've already screwed up. The JFK3 is the DP, so let's call them "instructions" instead) as a part of the JFK3 for the 22's...and only the 22's at this time. We'll worry about 04's, 13's, and 31's later. Just the 22's for now and just the JFK3.

All of the following assumes ATC hasn't instructed me to do something not on the chart for safety of flight or expedience or whatever. It's a great day at JFK and traffic is light, no weather issues, nobody "buzzing" around without radio contact so no reasons whatsoever for anything other than "business as usual". No "what ifs". All I want to do is go to KIAD. The winds are 228 at 12 gusting to 21. I intend to enter the HYPER6 KIAD arrival at RBV, so RBV is the first waypoint of my plan. I know there are other DPs that will get me to KIAD, but for the purposes of this discussion I like the JFK3 and I like flying over Robbinsville.

So, given that.

1) Between 0700 and 2200

a) Take off and climb on a heading 225 degrees.

b) Continue on a heading of 225 degrees until ATC vectors me to RBV. Never climb over 5,000, even after receiving vectors, until cleared for higher by ATC.

2) Between 2200 and 0700

a) Take off and fly a heading of 225 degrees.

b) If part of my clearance or departure instruction was to go via the GATEWAY CLIMB, as soon as I reach safe maneuvering speed make a climbing right turn to intercept the JFK VOR 232 Radial. Once 5 DME from JFK VOR on the 232 radial I turn, without ATC instruction, to a heading of 220 and stay on 220 heading until vectored to DIXIE (or RBV I guess) by ATC. Again, no higher than 5,000 until cleared higher.

c) If I was not given the GATEWAY CLIMB I fly the departure just like #1 above.

Randy
By Andrej Lippay 880522
#504082
Randy Tyndall 1087023 wrote:
2) Between 2200 and 0700

a) Take off and fly a heading of 225 degrees.

b) If part of my clearance or departure instruction was to go via the GATEWAY CLIMB, as soon as I reach safe maneuvering speed make a climbing right turn to intercept the JFK VOR 232 Radial. Once 5 DME from JFK VOR on the 232 radial I turn, without ATC instruction, to a heading of 220 and stay on 220 heading until vectored to DIXIE (or RBV I guess) by ATC. Again, no higher than 5,000 until cleared higher.


Hello Randy,

I know this is slightly older topic. :)

The procedure you have described is almost correct. Referring to my charts (source: airnav.com and Navigraph Charts), your departure would be as follows:

RWY22L/R - JFK3 SID - GATEWAY CLIMB
    once airborne - RT to intercept R232 JFK
    At JFK D5 LT to HDG220
    proceed to RNGRR fix (CRI vor - R223/D27, N4013.8W07412.3)
    for RBV expected vectors to RBV after corssing RNGRR fix

Initial altitude: 5000 feet

To make it easier, I took some screenshots:
Image
Image
Image

Cheers,
Andrej
By Magnus Meese 997444
#504084 That's "expect", though. No TRACON + no firm rules published = no requirement. My attitude is basically "check for traffic, depart on the initial procedure, look long and hard for traffic again, step up from 5k and go direct". I'm not a TRACON controller (and if I was, I wouldn't be one if I was flying either way), so it's not my job to stick to the facility's SOPs, LoAs and established corridors that's not readily available through pilot-side published charts and text pages, should noone be around to do that for me.
By Bradley Grafelman 1242018
#504088 Agree with Magnus. In addition, this:

Andrej Lippay 880522 wrote:proceed to RNGRR fix (CRI vor - R223/D27, N4013.8W07412.3)


seems incorrect. The departure plates itself does not clear the pilot to RNGRR except if you're departing runways 31L/R and were assigned the Breezy Point Climb.

For 22L/R's Gateway Climb, after you turn left to a heading of 220, you are then waiting for "RADAR vectors to assigned route/fix". No RNGRR involved.
By Andrej Lippay 880522
#505534
Magnus Meese 997444 wrote:That's "expect", though. No TRACON + no firm rules published = no requirement. ....that's not readily available through pilot-side published charts and text pages, should noone be around to do that for me.


I wholeheartedly agree that expect is not the same that you must follow the departure procedure to the letter. Nonetheless, if it states to expect something, I try to following it. Why? In case of a controller getting online, s/he may issue the clearance as expected. That's why.

Each pilot's preparation is up to him, but the charts I have shared (screen shot) are readily available (first is Navigraph's charts and many of us here have access to it, the second is from airnav.com, but it is directly sourced from the FAA). IMHO, if you fly from/to any airport, you should have an access to the charts and be ready to use them (either printed or as a pdf).

Bradley Grafelman 1242018 wrote:seems incorrect.


You are most likely correct. Both charts clearly state: 'expect vectors to RBV after RNGRR'. I have assumed that you have to fly over it, maybe it means that you pass it (laterally). I am not NY ARTCC so I am not sure....

Sources:
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1610/00610KENNEDY.PDF
and previously attached chart

Cheers,
Andrej