Air Traffic Controller Discussion With a Global Perspective
By Steven Perry 810054
#513560 What is the correct phraseology for a holding "radial" at an RNAV waypoint?

e.g. KOMMA has a published hold on high enroute charts (and the SEEVR STAR at KDFW). See skyvector chart here.

Is that "hold NE on the 037 radial?" or is it a bearing? or course? track?

KOMMA is defined by the FSM 215, but the hold is on 037/217 as shown on the high enroute and the SEEVR STAR.
By Bradley Grafelman 1242018
#513564
Steven Perry 810054 wrote:... and for the other half of VATSIM pilots who don't actually look at the charts?

... you're probably wasting your time trying to issue holding instructions to begin with. I'm actually not being facetious/sarcastic (for once :P ); do you really think the discipline/ability to read a chart is likely to come after the ability to decipher and execute detailed holding instructions?

To answer your question... what feels most natural to you from a pilot's perspective? Me personally, when I think of navigating via GPS, I think of things like desired track, not bearings (and certainly not radials). So, if I were to re-create that published hold using as many words as I could, I'd probably say:

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.

along with an altitude limit and an EFC.

Here is a JetCareers forum topic that appears to have some discussion on the same topic. (Couldn't find a StuckMic thread after a brief search.)
By Steven Perry 810054
#513567 Good find, thanks! I'll go with track.

As for holding before charts... maybe. There's a "HOLD" button on the Boeing CDUs and entry from there is reasonably intuitive. Airbus operators are excellent button pushers so they have a chance at finding their version of a hold, wherever that might be.

I've had decent success with issuing holds over the years. Most common mistake is they flip the direction of the hold.. e.g. "Cleared to ABC, hold NORTH on the 360 radial" will yield about 75% of pilots holding NORTH and flying the 360 radial inbound (i.e. OBS set to 180), 20% holding on the south side (presumably with the OBS set to 360), and 5% holding east on R-090 because beer.
By Ernesto Alvarez 818262
#513570 when using instructions online like track though, just be aware some autopilot regulars have no idea of the difference between a heading vs a track and often gets confused. keep it as simple as you can and youll reduce errors later

the other part that will more then likely confuse online pilots regularly, since they often confuse real world pilots as well, are instructions like "hold northeast of XYZ". youll get mixed responses on what that actually means even from real pilots if its something they dont have experience with. think Justin at mzeroA did a video about that as well to help the confusion with that instruction, i honestly never completely got this instruction until it was explained at school, then it was like "ahhhhhhh" lol
By Randy Tyndall 1087023
#513572 Okay, so as one who enjoys being placed in holds by ATC I have a comment.

I typically use the high enroutes from Navigraph based on Jeppeson and they look far different from the high enroutes on Skyvector, although I'm just as "at ease" with the Skyvector charts and use them as well.

I have never noticed those hold "racetracks" before. I am quite familiar with arrival and approach holds. They are easy to understand, but now I have questions...about these newly discovered enroute holds. :oops:

The published hold at KOMMA in the example Steven offered is indeed on a 037/217 track. That's easy enough to see. The track does not "touch" the waypoint symbol for KOMMA, however. Does the hold begin and end at KOMMA or some arbitrary point in space slightly east and slightly north of KOMMA as the chart appears to indicate? Is that why Daniel used the phrase...

cleared to komma, hold (direction) of komma as published


If the answer is "yes", what determines where in space that arbitrary point is? Or, was the "direction" in Daniel's phrase meant to highlight the right hand turns as the chart depicts. I noticed in Bradley's quote he changed it to read...

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.


That to me is more clear except I still don't know if this is an arbitrary position north and east of KOMMA (I assume it is by Bradley's "northeast" comment) and, if so, where that arbitrary point is.

Finally, as Steven states by way of an example...

"Cleared to ABC, hold NORTH on the 360 radial" would be even more confusing than a published hold depicted on the chart. I realize he is talking about a different hold in a different place by way of example showing people would not fly the hold correctly, but I can guarantee I would probably screw this up myself and, as I said, I love flying holds. I can understand why some are south and some are north...and we all know why Don flies east... :D

If he had offered...

"Cleared to ABC, hold 5 miles North of ABC outbound (or inbound) on the 360 radial, right hand turns, 1 minute, FL210, speed 230kts"


...that, I could fly! :D

Oh, and unless Steven is calling the "arbitrary point" an RNAV waypoint (which I don't think it really is) I wonder why his subject has the Acronym "RNAV" in it. KOMMA is not an RNAV point on the airway as far as I know.

Randy
By Steven Perry 810054
#513578 I usually ad lib some plain English clarification. E.g. Hold north of ABC on the 360 radial... remain NORTH of the VOR, 180 heading inbound 360 heading outbound..

In practice, as long as the pilots stay in the vicinity of the holding point at the assigned altitude, it is usually close enough for VATSIM work. I haven't worked any VATUSA facilities that have defined the holding pattern protected airspace and we rarely have multiple stacks in the same area that could reasonably interfere with each other.
By Krikor Hajian 1283146
#513579 4−6−4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS
When issuing holding instructions, specify:
a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.
b. Holding fix or waypoint.
NOTE−
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning
of the transmission as the clearance limit.
c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway,
or route on which the aircraft is to hold.
d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be
used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot
requests it or you consider it necessary.
e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left
turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you
consider it necessary.
PHRASEOLOGY−
HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial,
course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)
If leg length is specified,
(number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.
If direction of turn is specified,
LEFT/RIGHT TURNS

So radial doesn't work for an RNAV fix like you mentioned, but track or course does, I'd just use one of those. That said, I've found that most pilots are actually able to fly published holds, especially if the holds are published on a STAR. So then it's just "Cleared to KOMMA, hold <direction> as published, expect further clearance...

I was working Boston Center during the large EDDF-KJFK group flight a few months ago, when N90 told me to start holding I had a stack of 10 aircraft from 12,000' all the way up to FL220 over CCC and another 4 or 5 holding over TRAIT, I think I had two who couldn't accept a hold and just got vectored over the ocean and one who flew right turns instead of left turns.
By Dace Nicmane 1313735
#513587
Bradley Grafelman 1242018 wrote:I'd probably say:
Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.


Wouldn't you give the inbound track (217) rather than outbound?

Also, in Steven's example, if the holding is on R360, wouldn't you say "hold Northwest" or "Northeast" (depending on right or left turns) rather than North?

In Europe they say "inbound course" or "inbound radial" (for a VOR). No ambiguity.
By Daniel Hawton 876594
#513588
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:
Bradley Grafelman 1242018 wrote:I'd probably say:
Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.


Wouldn't you give the inbound track (217) rather than outbound?

Also, in Steven's example, if the holding is on R360, wouldn't you say "hold Northwest" or "Northeast" (depending on right or left turns) rather than North?

In Europe they say "inbound course" or "inbound radial" (for a VOR). No ambiguity.


The inbound track is 037 if you are issuing right turns and wanting them to hold NE. If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW. Given its diagram, it'd be more east over NE. Bu really all you need to say per the .65 is "Cleared to KOMMA. Hold east as published. EFC at ___, time now ___." Done. I've never used published holds enroute on VATSIM, I tend to pick major points and do a full hold instruction. Only arrival or approach charted holds do I use because few people seem to use Skyvector along the enroute portion.

Ernesto Alvarez 818262 wrote:the other part that will more then likely confuse online pilots regularly, since they often confuse real world pilots as well, are instructions like "hold northeast of XYZ".
Never before have I had a rw pilot not understand "Hold as published" as that's integral part of instrument training and I've worked several dozen instrument students and professionals rw with published holds. NE just verifies the side so when they look at the chart versus what they will do they know which side to be holding on.
By Dace Nicmane 1313735
#513589
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW.

I'd say it'd put them North, but depending on how long the leg is, if it's longer, it would be slightly Northeast.
Inbound track 037 would put them South, wouldn't it??
By Daniel Hawton 876594
#513591
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW.

I'd say it'd put them North, but depending on how long the leg is, if it's longer, it would be slightly Northeast.
Inbound track 037 would put them South, wouldn't it??


Depends completely on the turns... Visualize in your head where you'd turn from KOMMA tracking 037 right 180 degrees to 217. Where will that put you in relation to KOMMA? East. Now if you are tracking 217 at KOMMA and turned right, you would turn on the west side. It's not where the end of the leg is but where the outbound leg starts and in general where the outbound leg is. I'd call 037/published east or southeast.