Air Traffic Controller Discussion With a Global Perspective
By Ernesto Alvarez 818262
#513596 Daniel i wouldnt expect those errors from experienced pilots either, im talking inexperienced low time pilots. was a special topic about a year or two back on a FAASafety seminar we held pilots were doing it wrong in certain circumstances. maybe its just florida? lol or the influx of foreign student pilots we get down here whos english isnt perfect that causes it.

for instance "Hold NE on the 030 radial" you could get any of the 3 results in this graphic. #1 being the correct one youd expect, #2 being what youd expect if told "X miles NE" but some simply did it when they heard NE, or #3 which is just wrong unless told specifically otherwise lol

Image
By Dace Nicmane 1313735
#513597
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:Visualize in your head where you'd turn from KOMMA tracking 037 right 180 degrees to 217. Where will that put you in relation to KOMMA? East.

Why would it matter that I'll initially be turning East, if I'm actually turning Southwest, and most of my hold will be South of the fix? Looking at where the hold in general is, it's South from the fix, could be even Southwest, if the leg is longer. If looking where the outbound leg is, it's Southeast or South, but never Northeast.
By Steven Perry 810054
#513602 And now we see how we can all be confused about holding.

The holding direction specifies what side of the hold point you should remain (except the outbound turn just after crossing the point). Changing the turn direction makes no difference to what direction you stay from the hold point... north is north, whether your turn left or right!

If holding on R-360, you have two options, hold north or south. If holding on R-360 with an inbound course of 180 and right turns, you will turn to the west and remain in the NW quadrant, but you are still holding north of the point. If making left turns, you will be in the NE quadrant, but still holding north of the point.

But how could you hold south on R-360? When holding at a fix rather than the VOR. If "WAYPT" is defined as the "ABC VOR 360 radial 10 DME fix" (i.e. WAYPT is 10 miles north of ABC) and your clearance is "Cleared to WAYPT, hold south on the ABC 360 radial, right turns, 10 mile legs" your hold would be between ABC and WAYPT, with your inbound leg starting right over top ABC.

I do like the Euro way of calling the inbound course/radial. That sounds less confusing. Maybe one day we'll have that here... but I do still occasionally revert to "position & hold" rather than "line up & wait" after how many years?
By Daniel Hawton 876594
#513605
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."


Not at all. That number 1 example has an inbound track heading southwest... KOMMA inbound is 037 which is northeast. Completely wrong aside of the fix which is help caught by the statement " hold north as published" which would clue the pilot in saying "you can't hold north on a 037 track with right turns". Turns would be a factor in east/west.

Ernesto, again, I've never had students or long time professional pilots rw get confused. Inbound and direction of turns are specific. Anyone who does #2 or #3 are wrong... Plain and simple. It is a basic lesson in instrument flight.
By Daniel Hawton 876594
#513609
Steven Perry 810054 wrote:
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:You can't tell someone to hold north on the 270 radial left turns...


Right... because you either hold east or west of the fix on a 270 radial.


When did RNAV fixes get radials? ;)
By Randy Tyndall 1087023
#513612 After having read the JetCareers Forum Discussion linked above it's still confusing to me somewhat. Performing a hold off any VOR or any fix on an Departure, Arrival, or Approach Chart is easy-peasy for me. The depiction on the chart leaves no doubt in my mind the direction inbound to the holding fix, the type of entry I need to make, the length of the inbound and outbound legs, the turns, etc.

Performing one while enroute at a random fix is where the confusion arises for me. If I'm told to hold North of a fix (waypoint , NDB, or VOR) that's easy. I know which area in the airspace is North of a fix. Start throwing in tracks, radials, bearings, and turns and I think, even to the professional ATCOs in the JetCareers discussion, there is the potential for confusion in both the pilot and the ATCO.

If I am told to hold North of fix ABC (not a VOR) on a track, heading, or course of 360 inbound to the fix there is no way I will be North of the fix. If I'm told on a Bearing it's even more confusing because the JetCareers discussion specifically said "Bearing" can mean to or from. Also, bearing for the pilot is completely different from bearing for the fix, unless bearing for a pilot always means "to" and bearing for a fix always means "from". Radials is a little easier to visualize because, I believe, they are always "from".

So, if you want me to hold North of ABC on a Bearing, Heading, Radial, Course, or Track of 360 degrees, that 360 degrees has got to be the outbound leg of the hold, doesn't it, in order for me to stay North of the fix? Everything else is easy enough to deduce. I'll fly right turns unless you tell me to turn left or the chart shows a hold racetrack indicating left. I'll fly 1 minute legs unless you tell me otherwise. I'll fly at my current altitude (or the one on the chart if specified) unless you tell me otherwise. I'll fly at my current speed (or the one on the chart if specified) unless you tell me otherwise.

Randy
By Dace Nicmane 1313735
#513613
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."


Not at all. That number 1 example has an inbound track heading southwest... KOMMA inbound is 037 which is northeast. Completely wrong aside of the fix which is help caught by the statement " hold north as published" which would clue the pilot in saying "you can't hold north on a 037 track with right turns".

You can't hold North on a 037 track with any turns. If your inbound track is 037, then you're either holding South (right turns) or Southwest (left turns). The only way to hold Northeast, is on a 217 track, or as in Ernesto's picture, 210 track (=030 radial), with right turns being more North and left turns being more East, the difference is just these 7° and fix vs. VOR.
By Daniel Hawton 876594
#513614
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:
Daniel Hawton 876594 wrote:
Dace Nicmane 1313735 wrote:That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."


Not at all. That number 1 example has an inbound track heading southwest... KOMMA inbound is 037 which is northeast. Completely wrong aside of the fix which is help caught by the statement " hold north as published" which would clue the pilot in saying "you can't hold north on a 037 track with right turns".

You can't hold North on a 037 track with any turns. If your inbound track is 037, then you're either holding South (right turns) or Southwest (left turns). The only way to hold Northeast, is on a 217 track, or as in Ernesto's picture, 210 track (=030 radial), with right turns being more North and left turns being more East, the difference is just these 7° and fix vs. VOR.


037 is a northeast track... And it's not a radial. Fixes do not have radials.
By Dhruv Kalra 878508
#513616 "Hold Northeast" would imply that the entire holding pattern keeps you to the North and East of the Fix, therefore the inbound course would be in a southwesterly direction.