Pilot Discussion With a Global Perspective
By Gabriel Adei 1000297
#128124 I have read a lot about the SIDs and STARs and understand it somewhat but I think I am a little confused. Last nite I was cleard from KJFK to KIAD by the controller via the KENNEDY ONE departure by CANARSIE climb. I fished out the charts and was all flustered. After trying to make sense of the diagram I was stil confused and then I read the text associated with it and got more confused. Here is the text. CANARSIE CLIMB: Climbing left turn direct CRI VOR/DME, make turn east of CRI R-039, then via CRI R-176. Cross CRI 2 DME or JFK R-253 at or above 2,500 feet, maintaing 5,000 feet, Thence....
Well I took it I was suppose to take of and turn left after a positive rate of climbe to the CRI VOR and shd be at or above 2,500 ft after I am 2DME past CRI. Here is my question, what is the additional turn east of CRI R-039 via CRI R-176 doing in this "equation" Can some one please explain point by point what this whole departure would look like? What is the R-039 mean. Is that the radial on the VOR to follow. How can I turn east of the VOR when it said to make an initial left to the VOR. Or how can you fly R-039 via R-176. All help appreciated.
Last edited by Gabriel Adei 1000297 on Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By Keith Smith 879675
#128128 You're asking about the turn "east of the CRI R-039". This is depicted on the chart. You must remain east of the CRI 039 radial, making your turn towards the VOR prior to reaching that point after takeoff.

Reaching CRI, you'd join the CRI R-176 outbound (heading south), complying with the 'at or above 2500' restriction. passing CRI 2 DME (or the JFK radial, whichever you prefer to use).

Don't let the "east of the CRI R-039" scare you off, it's just a restriction to ensure you start the left turn dir CRI in a timely fashion so that you never cross that 039 radial.

The visual depiction on the chart is fairly clear, too.
By Gabriel Adei 1000297
#128133 Thx a lot Keith. Now it make sense and with this explanation I think I can confidently read and understand more charts. Hey thats not to say I might not bring a more difficult one on here for more help. But just thinking about this I now know y most jet liners have two pilots. A captain and a co-pilot. I am just wondering how one person can handle all of this if u take off and u have set everything for R-039 and within one of the most diffucult phases of flight then u have to reset for R-179 which happens in a few seconds of departure. That is how most of us (I assume) fly on our sims; Single pilot. Just wondering how other people might handle this situation cos I like to take off manual untill cruise alt be4 I use auto pilot. Thx all the same.
By Keith Smith 879675
#128139 Hi Gabriel, that's a good question.

One solution would be use 2 VOR's, tuned to the same station, dialing in two different OBS settings. The other would be to use an RMI to ensure the turn is done prior to the 039 radial, and only use NAV1 OBS to join the 179. Lastly, in the case of only having a single NAV radio and no RMI, you could make the left turn direct CRI, ensuring the on course heading to the station keeps you east of the 039 radial. Reaching CRI, fly hdg 179 and then when able, adjust the OBS to read 179 and join the radial accordingly.

At the end of the day, it's just two left turns after takeoff, one to the VOR, then another to join the 179 radial outbound.
By James Hudson 951027
#128164 I controll ZNY as departure so far... If you don't have charts or don't know how to fly them, tell the controller and they give you a heading after takeoff...220. Yes its a tuff climb also because Newark is strait ahead like 15 NM.
By Adrian Edwards 949520
#128217
James Hudson 951027 wrote:I controll ZNY as departure so far... If you don't have charts or don't know how to fly them, tell the controller and they give you a heading after takeoff...220. Yes its a tuff climb also because Newark is strait ahead like 15 NM.


Agreed. The chart looks really messy...a turn to 220 for VATSIM purposes is fine 90% of the time. I wonder if an RNAV departure for the Canarsie climb will ever be implemented?
By Andras Kiss 888081
#128224 Actually one thing that is nice about pilots on the canarsie climb is that it brings the planes a bit south, good for separation of southern departures and gues going NE and E.

There is an RNAV departure already, the SKORR1. YNKEE Transition is like the Canarsie climb while the RNGRR transition is like the Breezy Point.
By James Hudson 951027
#128230
Adrian Edwards 949520 wrote:
James Hudson 951027 wrote:I controll ZNY as departure so far... If you don't have charts or don't know how to fly them, tell the controller and they give you a heading after takeoff...220. Yes its a tuff climb also because Newark is strait ahead like 15 NM.


Agreed. The chart looks really messy...a turn to 220 for VATSIM purposes is fine 90% of the time. I wonder if an RNAV departure for the Canarsie climb will ever be implemented?


Well the only RNAV Departure out of Kennedy is the SKORR1 Departure, its a left heading 240 to procede to RNAV : http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00610SKORR.PDF
http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00610SKORR_C.PDF

Really need to get vectored because of 3 MAJOR airpots within 30 miles of eachother. think of departure and arrival procedures?
http://www4.passur.com/jfk.html
Nasty tracon :) I will try to post a pic of the combined N90 Tracon[/img]
By Gabriel Adei 1000297
#128271 Keith unfotunately for me I still fly the defualt 737 in FS9 and there is one VOR gauge and I am still trying to figure out exactly how to track it well. The two hands confuses me again. I know one is pointing to the VOR (the thin one) but what is the other one (double think) one pointing at?
By Adrian Edwards 949520
#128275
James Hudson 951027 wrote:Really need to get vectored because of 3 MAJOR airpots within 30 miles of eachother. think of departure and arrival procedures?


I'm aware of LGA, EWR and Kennedy being in close proximity; I don't think that's the reason they haven't been implemented. RNP 2.0 has accuracy down to 0.5 miles 100% of the time, more accurate than vectoring. The number of different runway configurations operating simultaneously at the three fields would make it a nightmare, since a set of procedures would be needed for virtually every situation.
By Kevin Kan 811725
#128294 Tune Nav2 to CRI R-039 make sure the needle is to the right the whole time, that will keep you east.
Tune Nav1 to CRI R-176 intercept that and out that outbound.

On takeoff just start a nice left turn at 400ft. On your display, just point your plane towards CRI VOR and that also guarantees you will stay east, then just before hitting the VOR turn left to heading 176 and you should be close to the radial.


For the altitudes you have 2 options:

On departure climb like crazy to 5000, and your guaranteed to not bust any of those.
Or set VSI to 2500fpm, I think that should do it.
By Mike Sweeney 811317
#128303 To see the Kennedy departures in action (off runway 31L) ...

http://www4.passur.com/jfk.html

1. Set Date to January 6, 2007
2. Set time to 19hr 46 min
3. Set Map range to 20 miles
4. Click Normal, then Start

The green aircraft are departures from Kennedy, the second departure you will see by clicking on it is DAL94, a 767 to Barcelona. However, he is restricted to 6000 feet after climbing in the left turn.
To see why, look towards the bottom of the screen, south of JFK, and click on the grey aircarft, a general aviation aircraft callsign N199AV heading north, descending to land at KFRG (East of KJFK). The Cherokee is descending to 6500.

Slightly off topic but watch the Cherokee cross just over DAL94 B767, by 500 feet ... and then proceed , as cleared by NY, over the arrivals for runway 31R (aircraft in blue).

And more "on topic", have a look at the green departures off JFK to see the DP in action.

- Mike
By Gabriel Adei 1000297
#129144 And I thought I understood every explanation I've been given so far. Ok check this out. A few hrs ago I was cleared to take off from KPHX on 25R via the TFD2 departure and COCHISE transition. Ok! I take off on heading 258 at 1550 ft I turn left heading 240. I had set my instrument to the PXR VOR to track 9DME from it. So after 9DME from the PXR VOR I turn heading 160 all the way climbing to maintain 7000. ah ah ah I get a private msg from DEP. I was not suppose to turn like that... well what can I say. I thought the charts told me to do what I did. It was a busy airport for an event so I could not ask him for some more explanation. Can someone pls tell me where I went wrong step by step. I appreciate all responses.
By Mike Roth 932270
#129152 Unless I'm not reading the chart correctly myself, what you did seems to be correct. What you are saying you did is exactly what I would have done.
By Mike Fries 813951
#129161
Mike Roth 932270 wrote:Unless I'm not reading the chart correctly myself, what you did seems to be correct. What you are saying you did is exactly what I would have done.


same here