Possible Bug - if not then a suggestion

[Richard Webb 1097731]

When modifying the voice type of the a/c it does not change the /x/ in the remarks (where x is V, T, or R)... it also does not display /t or /r if that is in the remarks.

 

Thanks

-Rich

[David Saunders 818672]

The remarks is a freetext section and is there to help by putting in the T / R / V only, also depending how pilots have entered the T or R or V then this will depend on whether or not it will display correctly. Again this is dependant on what the pilot enters and isnt always correct so I dont think anything will change here, and also this sitituation is quite fluid depending on connections.

[Jean-Frederik Dion 819740]

How does VRC handle the remark when setting voice flag?

[Sebastien Bartosz]

turns it into /v/

[Richard Webb 1097731]

Further, if VRC encounters /v/ or /t/ in the remarks section anywhere then the voice type on the tag is listed correctly for what was there. That is why it is an issue for me because most of the other controllers in our ARTCC use VRC and I get yelled at when handing off an aircraft for not setting the voice tag when in actuality, I am.

 

-Rich

[Gergely Csernak]

If you set the voice type then a special message is sent out to the neighbor controllers. That message should be interpreted by ASRC/VRC and that overrides the FP route section /v/ tags.

[Jean-Frederik Dion 819740]

I suggest changing the FP remark too. Controllers with small ranges will miss the flag changed message but all will get the FP.

[Gergely Csernak]

Yes, but after amending a FP the pilot is no more able to modify that. That is why I try to avoid that whenever it is possible. We had some quite similar discussion about RFL some topics before.

[Jean-Frederik Dion 819740]

True..

 

Does [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning a SID/STAR with ES ammend the FP ?

[Martin Loxbo]

Yes, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning a SID or STAR adds it to the route field, so it definitely changes the flight plan.

 

I don't see why this is a problem though, why would a pilot need to change his flight plan when he's being controlled by ATC? In fact, he shouldn't change it.

[Richard Webb 1097731]

All I know is that on more than one occasion, the next controller has chastised me for not updating the voice tag when I in fact did update it. He is always on VRC and it still shows /? or whatever it did prior to my adjustment.

 

I agree - why would a pilot be changing his FP after ATC contact is made? I know that personally when I fly once I have my clearance, the FP is never touched again, so by time a controller is setting the voice tag, the pilot is done messing with the FP.

 

At this point it's just more of an annoyance than anything because I just tell them that I did change it and if it doesn't show up correctly for them, then to change it.

 

-Rich

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

Check your and his visibility range. Maybe if they are too small, he is not considered a next controller?

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

Check your and his visibility range. Maybe if they are too small, he is not considered a next controller?

I've personally controller with Rich when he's on APP and I'm on center. My visibility is 300, and I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume his is set at 150. That should be plenty, yet I receive no notification, nor does VRC that this tag has been updated. It still displays a /? on my screen and the FP remarks section isn't changed. If one manually enters a /T/ into the remarks of their FP, VRC will display the /T without me having to do anything. So it would be nice for EuroScope to have that FP update for better coordination with VRC controllers.

[Richard Webb 1097731]

Further, I was in a session with my instructor on APP and he was using VRC and same problem as the voice tag, final altitudes are not updated and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed over to him either. This is a bigger problem. He's thinking that I'm not updating the data tags when making contact and giving instructions when I am. I think this one needs to be fixed or I'll have to go back to vrc... unfortunately this is a deal breaker. This is especially a problem when more than one approach controller is on and you're handing an a/c from one app controller to another, one on VRC and the other on ES.

 

BTW, I think that updating the fields in the FP is standard procedure for VRC because if you adjust the cruise alt in vrc, it's saved in the FP.

 

-Rich

[Stephan Boerner 945550]

I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you are from VATUSA, because this posting matches a discussion from a few months ago: the behaviour of ES concerning requested/planned flight level and cleared flight level is intended and therefore no bug. While VRC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umes them to be the same, we acknowledged them being seperate values and therefore to be treated individually. In addition to that, you seem to use the CFL as temp level, so not in a way it is by design supposed to be used (determined based on the network protocol and not by the way it works in VRC). For reference you can search for the other thread where we already had a long discussion about that topic. (If you are talking about something different, then I misunderstood you.)

 

So this is neither a bug, nor is it a behaviour we intend to change as it was just recently introduced after that last discussion. For me this looks more like a procedural problem than an ES problem. So the only real unanswered question that remains is, why VRC does not correctly interpret the value that should be sent by ES ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that it is not a bug that makes ES not sendig this value).

[Martin Loxbo]

Stephan, surely CFL = Cleared Flight Level = "temporary altitude" (set with F8)? Or do you mean something different by CFL?

[Richard Webb 1097731]

In addition to that, you seem to use the CFL as temp level, so not in a way it is by design supposed to be used (determined based on the network protocol and not by the way it works in VRC).

 

There has been much discussion amongst our instructors/leaders in the ZAU ARTCC (Chicago) about whether to use perm alts or temp alts when updating a data tag. The reasoning is that if you update a temp alt, then have a server split or disconnection, you lose all your temp alts that were [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to tracked aircraft. If you adjust the perm alt (which adjusts the cruise Alt - using F5), it's in the flight plan and therefore comes back after a network disconnection.

 

I would have to check, but I don't believe temp alts are being p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed either. I don't know this for sure though. I will check on my session on Wednesday night. If those are being p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed correctly, then that might be usable for me. I'm usually not tracking that many aircraft where if I disconnected from the network it would be a major thing.

 

I still think the voice tag thing needs to work between ES and VRC though.

 

In an ideal world where everyone runs ES, these things wouldn't be problematic I'm sure. I just get tired of some people telling me that I should use VRC until ES works correctly when it really DOES work correctly and it's VRC that is not interpreting the network protocols properly.

 

-Rich

[Ross Carlson]

There has been much discussion amongst our instructors/leaders in the ZAU ARTCC (Chicago) about whether to use perm alts or temp alts when updating a data tag. The reasoning is that if you update a temp alt, then have a server split or disconnection, you lose all your temp alts that were [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to tracked aircraft. If you adjust the perm alt (which adjusts the cruise Alt - using F5), it's in the flight plan and therefore comes back after a network disconnection.

 

This concerns not only network splits, but also the situation where a flight leaves your airspace and continues into the airspace of a controller that was not in range when you entered the alt.

 

This is also the reason why VRC amends the flight plan remarks when the voice type changes. Otherwise, controllers further down the line won't see the change. It's a deficiency of the server, in that it does not store these data points for us.

 

I am curious why adjacent controllers using VRC are not seeing voice changes issued from ES, though. That may very well be a bug in VRC. (Although it was certainly tested between ASRC and VRC back when I developed VRC.) I'll take a look at the code this evening and see if anything looks wrong to me.

[Karl Kornel 964857]

Regarding the issue of the key, I know that was covered in a separate thread, though at this time I don't remember which one. I think I suggested something like "Leave alone, and make do the same as VRC's ," but that would've been to late to make it into 3.1a.

 

As for the voice tag, Ross, I've tested it before, and ES definitely doesn't update the flight strip when the voice tag is changed, so I don't think it's an issue in VRC!

 

At this point, even though it's pretty annoying, every time I have an outbound or inbound aircraft (I'm on APP), I always end up using the .am command (or + a) to edit the plane's flight strip directly. Not only do I have to enter the voice tag if it is missing, or correct an incorrect cruise altitude (for outbound flights), I also have to use the .am command when I want to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a runway, because changing a runway [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment erases the filed STAR from the flight strip (this is also covered in another thread).

[Ross Carlson]

As for the voice tag, Ross, I've tested it before, and ES definitely doesn't update the flight strip when the voice tag is changed, so I don't think it's an issue in VRC!

 

Yeah, but an adjacent VRC user should still get the new voice tag.

 

Is there anyone online right now using ES that could help me test this?

[Karl Kornel 964857]

As of the time this is posted, I believe so!

 

[Ross Carlson]

Check your and his visibility range. Maybe if they are too small, he is not considered a next controller?

I've personally controller with Rich when he's on APP and I'm on center. My visibility is 300, and I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume his is set at 150. That should be plenty, yet I receive no notification, nor does VRC that this tag has been updated. It still displays a /? on my screen and the FP remarks section isn't changed. If one manually enters a /T/ into the remarks of their FP, VRC will display the /T without me having to do anything. So it would be nice for EuroScope to have that FP update for better coordination with VRC controllers.

 

I just tested this with an ES user. He changed the voice tag on a flight, and I saw the change take place. (Even though the tag was not entered in the remarks.) So I'm not sure why it's not working for you.

[Richard Webb 1097731]

What were the conditions of the test? I tried this several times with an adjacent vrc controller and they never got the voice tag update. Also, what was displayed for this person, did the data tag display change? What mode of radar were they using on vrc - or should that matter?

 

This is also happening with perm alt changes.. (I think I mentioned this earlier can't remember so sorry)

 

-Rich

[Ross Carlson]

What were the conditions of the test?

 

He was running ES as CVG_APP. I logged on with VRC as VRC_DEV. There was a target in the airspace with no voice tag. He was showing /? on my scope. I asked CVG_APP to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a voice type to the target. A moment later, I saw the /? disappear, meaning the voice type had been set to Full Voice. Nothing changed in the flight plan remarks.

 

What mode of radar were they using on vrc - or should that matter?

 

It doesn't matter, as all VRC radar modes behave the same in this respect.

 

In your test, do you know if the flight plan remarks already had a voice tag in them?

[Jonas Eberle]

How would that react, if the plane gets the voice type set by one controller, then flies across several controllers' ranges - is the voice type given further at handoff then?

 

I would strongly vote for the voice type => /x/ in the flightplan and RFL => Cruise Level in the flightplan. This could be a workaround for all glitches.