Stefan Blauw Posted February 23, 2010 at 01:43 PM Posted February 23, 2010 at 01:43 PM Hello, We are working on our .ESE files in order to get them working finally. Please let me explain the situation and our problem. The areas we are working with are the Schiphol TMA and the Amsterdam CTAs. We have made some sectors already, and they work well. The sectorlines are also correct and working. See hereunder (just additional information – you may skip this): SECTOR:EHAMTMA_SECT:0:9500 OWNER:FD1:FD2:AR1:AR2:ACW:ACS:ACE BORDER:EHAMTMA1:EHAMTMA2:EHAMTMA3:EHAMTMA4:EHAMTMA5:EHAMTMA6 SECTOR:EHAMACOD_SECT:9500:66000 OWNER:ACS:ACW:ACE BORDER:EHAMTMA1:EHAMTMA2:EHAMTMA3:EHAMTMA4:EHAMTMA5:EHAMTMA6 SECTOR:EHAAW_SECT:0:66000 OWNER:ACW:ACS:ACE BORDER:EGPX1:EGTT6:EGTT1:EGTT2:EGTT3:EBBU1:SECT5_SECT3:EHAMTMA1:SECT5_TMAA SECTOR:EHAAS_SECT:0:66000 OWNER:ACS:ACW:ACE BORDER:SECT5_SECT3:EBBU2:SECT3_TMAD:EHAMTMA2 SECTOR:EHAAE_SECT:0:66000 OWNER:ACE:ACS:ACW BORDER:SECT2_TMAD:EDGG2A:EDGG3:SECT2_TMAC:EDWW2:SECT1_TMAA:EHAMTMA5 EHAMTMA_SECT is the sector of the Schiphol TMA; EHAMACOD_SECT is the area above the Schiphol TMA; EHAAW_SECT is Amsterdam Radar West; EHAAE_SECT is Radar East and EHAAS is Amsterdam Radar South. So far so good. Now have a look at the COPs between Schiphol Approach and Amsterdam Radar for our inbounds (again just additional information): ;COPs Schiphol APP inbounds COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:04:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:04:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:04:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:06:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:06:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:06:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:09:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:09:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:09:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:18C:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:18C:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:18C:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:18R:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:18R:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:18R:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:22:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:22:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:22:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:27:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:27:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:27:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:36C:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:36C:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:36C:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER COPX:*:*:SUGOL:EHAM:36R:EHAAW_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:SUGOL COPX:*:*:ARTIP:EHAM:36R:EHAAE_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:ARTIP COPX:*:*:RIVER:EHAM:36R:EHAAS_SECT:EHAMTMA_SECT:*:7000:RIVER These are COPs for all runways from our IAFs: SUGOL, ARTIP and RIVER. All STARs are the same for all runways, but strangely enough we had to enter them all separate. Again, so far, so good. However, now we are getting to our problem, the departures. Schiphol Tower does not give a hand off the Approach, but Approach always picks up the label itself. The tags of approaching aircraft are dropped by Approach and not handed over. Nevertheless a sector for Schiphol Tower has been made. The only handover is made from Approach to Radar or from Radar to Approach. Let’s have a look at the departures from runway 36L. Description of our SIDs from runway 36L: SID:EHAM:36L:BERGI3V:EH047 EH034 BERGI SID:EHAM:36L:GORLO3V:EH047 EH094 EH090 EH091 VOLLA GORLO SID:EHAM:36L:LEKKO2V:EH084 EH036 EH072 LEKKO SID:EHAM:36L:LOPIK2V:EH084 EH036 OGINA LOPIK SID:EHAM:36L:PAM1V:EH012 EH087 EH088 PAM ARNEM SID:EHAM:36L:SPY1V:EH013 EH083 ANDIK These so-called EH-fixes are described in the sector file as well. And the COPs: ;COPs Schiphol 36L COPX:EHAM:36L:EH091:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAW_SECT:9000:*:GORLO COPX:EHAM:36L:EH034:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAW_SECT:9000:*:BERGI COPX:EHAM:36L:EH083:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAE_SECT:9000:*:ANDIK COPX:EHAM:36L:PAM:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAE_SECT:9000:*:ARNEM COPX:EHAM:36L:EH072:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAS_SECT:9000:*:LEKKO COPX:EHAM:36L:OGINA:EHEH:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:MILD_SECT2:7000:*:LOPIK COPX:EHAM:36L:OGINA:EHBK:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:MILD_SECT2:7000:*:LOPIK COPX:EHAM:36L:OGINA:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:MILD_SECT2:9000:*:LOPIK There should be no COPN for Approach as he picks up the label manually, and (the names of) his COPX should either be ARNEM, ANDIK, BERGI, GORLO, LEKKO or LOPIK. These fixes (or the names of these fixes) should thus be the COPN of Amsterdam Radar. When we have set up our runway dialog to the runway selection of 06 arrivals and 36R departures, everything goes well at Amsterdam Radar, see this screenshot (XID = Exit Controller ID; CID = Current Controller ID): The runway selection dialog: Step 1, Amsterdam Radar: As you can see, all SIDs are selected automatically, and the COPNs and COPXs are correct. When we log in on Approach using the exact same sector file and .ESE-file, this should also work, shouldn’t it? Step 2, logged in on Schiphol Approach, I have not changed anything else: As you can see, some SIDs have their COPXs displayed well, but the one to BERGI does not have a COPX, only a COPN, which is BERGI. It seems EuroScope has changed them? What can be the reason for this? Step 3: now we open the sector file for Schiphol Approach with the same section in the .ESE-file as here above, so in fact nothing should be different, but… So what’s this? Only two SIDs are [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned (TRA685 and CKS328), all others have got no SID [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned and this no COPX. This is very strange! It is still correct that there should be no COPN. Again: I have copied the .ESE file, so there is not any difference 'in the background'. Does anyone know how we can fix this? We have tried many things, but it is freaking us out… Best regards, Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todor Atanasov 878664 Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:20 PM Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:20 PM COPX:EHAM:36L:EH091:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAW_SECT:9000:*:GORLO COPX:EHAM:36L:EH034:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAW_SECT:9000:*:BERGI COPX:EHAM:36L:EH083:*:*:EHAMTMA_SECT:EHAAE_SECT:9000:*:ANDIK Do you see what you are missing here ? COPX:DEP APT or FIX BEFORE:DEP RWY:FIX:ARR APT or FIX AFTER:ARR RWY:FROM SECTOR:TO SECTOR2:CLIMB TO XFL:DESCEND TO XFL:XNAME You have defined not BERGI as COPX but EH034 that will be shown as XNAME = BERGI. EuroScope BETA Tester/Board of Designers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Blauw Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:34 PM Author Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:34 PM That fix is the fix that is used to identify the SID. It is last fix before the pilot will fly directly to BERGI, see this chart. You can see that it does work when I am logged in as Schiphol Approach using the ACC-files, but not when logged in as Schiphol Approach using the APP-files. By the way, we have defined these EH-fixes as COPXs because the flights will be handed over to ACC before the flights are really overhead BERGI etc., EH032 is more likely in this case. BERGI should be displayed anyway, shouldn't it? Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephan Boerner 945550 Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:41 PM Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:41 PM Why do you want to use different files at all? It should not be necessary to use different files. If it is working with one file and not with the other, then there is probably somewhere a copy'n'paste or something like that. Compare the files, and you will probably find an error somewhere ... but it is really hard to guess ... Stephan Boerner VATEUD - ATC Training Director EuroScope Board of Designers | GVCCS Beta Tester EuroScope Quick Start Guide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Blauw Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:46 PM Author Posted February 23, 2010 at 02:46 PM They are not really different files, some items like FIR boundaries, a lot of fixes, NDBs, VORs and so on have been omitted in the APP-file, because they are only needed in the ACC-file. Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephan Boerner 945550 Posted February 23, 2010 at 03:08 PM Posted February 23, 2010 at 03:08 PM So why would you bother maintaining two different files? Stick to the ACC file and trash the APP file. There really seems to be no point in having two, especially if the ACC file is already working correct and the other isn't. Stephan Boerner VATEUD - ATC Training Director EuroScope Board of Designers | GVCCS Beta Tester EuroScope Quick Start Guide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todor Atanasov 878664 Posted February 23, 2010 at 03:33 PM Posted February 23, 2010 at 03:33 PM Can you send me the files to xumepoc(_at)abv(dot)bg ? EuroScope BETA Tester/Board of Designers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Blauw Posted February 23, 2010 at 04:35 PM Author Posted February 23, 2010 at 04:35 PM I have copied the content of the sectorfile of Amsterdam Radar to the one of Schiphol Approach, and runway 36L works fine now, except for BERGI, which is still displayed as COPN instead of COPX when logged in as Schiphol Approach. When runway 24 is chosen as departure runway, only ANDIK is displayed well. I will send you an email. Stefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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