London Heathrow - A plea to pilots

[Martin Leat 860888]

This is still an on-going discussion , but rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured you will be kept updated on the matter....

[Ryan Justesen 890220]

I agree completely Gareth! As a US-based pilot I've only flown out of the London terminal are twice. I had done the reading and knew where the FL was, knew how to fly the DP, etc. The only thing I screwed up was the switch from tower to departure controller, I didn't realize it was 'automatic' and so was expecting a handoff. While in the airspace however, I heard some of the most unprepared and clueless pilots I've ever encountered on Vatsim... ridiculous individuals who can't even control their own aircraft, much less know where they are....

 

I, for one, believe that you all are completely justified in your demand for pilots flying the area to invest even the smallest effort to learn the procedures. I have a suggestion which I'd like to hear your thoughts on: At nearly any time isn't there at least one SUP on the network, lurking on some channel or other. I suggest that any time you open Heathrow Director you grab a SUP and have them listen on channel. At least then you will have someone close at hand to deal with those pilots who are making no effort to comply, or are so clueless that they are ruining things for everyone else. The SUP could perhaps point out to them the appropriate literature, etc. This idea may seem harsh, and I'm sure will be criticized, but given the magnitude of the problem I really believe it's the best course of action.

 

And now that I've ranted myself into a corner , a question: How do UK pilots/controllers handle the 8.33 MHZ frequency spacing? I got through last time by using the .com command in SB3, but is there a way to tune via the FS radios? Does SB3/FS round up/down?

[Gareth Williams 840232]

How do UK pilots/controllers handle the 8.33 MHZ(sic) frequency spacing?

 

We don't

 

All VATSIM frq are based on 25kHz spacing.

 

IRL, UK ATC are only just starting to get 8.33kHz-based 'channels' [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned as opposed to 25kHz-based 'frequencies'; and then only for certain sectors.

 

In the virtual world we are all subject to the programming abilities of Uncle Bills employees....

 

Regards,

Gareth

[Ryan Justesen 890220]

he he, thanks Gareth (for the correction AND the info. Once upon a time I had the correct terminology, but alas....). I was sure I had to enter a XXX.125 channel at some point, but I must've imagined it. Now I hate to think what else I may have imagined that day..... Thanks for the clarification, I look forward to flying in your airspace again soon.

 

regards,

 

Ryan

[William Brazier 906785]

Garreth

 

I quite agreee with you on this subject and i find it sickining

 

PLEASE PEOPLE if you wouldnt do it in the real world DON'T DO IT ON VATSIM

[William Brazier 906785]

Sorry one more comment the pilot how keeps flying roung EGLL in a helicopter like he owns the place please stop.

 

it becomes really anoying having u hover over our aircraft whilst where trying to taxi

[Kim Gowney 951309]

I am totaly new to VATSIM but have read this thread with interest and I must say a certain ammount of trepidation, it's not the ATC guys I am worried about, it's the apparent profusion of other pilots who it seems are not playing the game. Not that I am put off in any way, it's too new for that, but I was listening to real world ATC online and heard a conteoller tell a small plane pilot "(Callsign) would you please descend, its a control instruction, it's not advisory" to which the pilot replied "Oh" and no more, obviously chastened by the ATC guy's necesary brusque reminder.

The point of this is, in the real world, you would never get away with the violations that were described in the beggining of this thread, should such consistently bad flying really be tolerated in the VATSIM environment?

 

Greetings to all!

[Jeff Clark]

Kim,

 

We live in hope that many of the newer pilots will go on to eventually be some of our regular, veteran pilots.

 

Indeed, many of us online, if you buy us enough beers, would admit to being pretty poor pilots when we first started out.

 

VATSIM is, and always will be, both a place for experienced pilots as well as a learning environment for newer ones. Of course, there are always those who really have no intention of learning, and our Supervisors do the best job they can of finding these folks and weeding them out. But we need to always have open arms for "fresh blood" in our hobby, and newer pilots don't need to be perfect to be welcome - they just need to be willing to learn from their mistakes.

 

Mike Bevington's team is working on some exciting projects to help make the transition from newbie to veteran a bit less painful. In the meantime, we always hope that our more experienced controllers and pilots remember that one day, they didn't know everything either, and go easy on those starting out.

 

Jeff Clark

VATSIM Board of Governors

[Kim Gowney 951309]

Cheers Jeff, that sounds entirely reasonable and good, I am looking forward to the experience!

[Norman Guffick 935816]

GARETH:

 

I agree with you entirely. Can I suggest that we have a few training sessions (on-line and active). Chose an isolated airport. Get pilots and ATC to swap roles for the training session. Incorporate arrivals, departures, CCTs, emergencies, SIDs and STARs etc., and let the Pilots make mistakes whilst carrying-out role of ATC. The ATC guys can then take-over and show the pilots how it should be done.

 

 

Not only fun, but a serious training exercise and a "get to know each other" PR job!

 

 

G-AZTB

[Mike Friesen 891507]

I am with Norman. A root solution is to somehow entice inexperienced pilots to train in a less hectic environment. I am a former real world pilot (commercial license, instrument rated) but not very experienced yet in the VATSIM world ... I still do not venture online to the busiest airports during the busiest times. It strikes me as very interesting to note the huge training gap between VATSIM controller requirements and on-line pilots. How do we close this gap?

 

Not trying to be controversial but only brainstorm. What about setting minimum on-line hour requirements to fly into the busiest airports at peak times? Here is one way.

 

* Define one or two or three traffic density designations

* The senior controller on duty makes the traffic call

* Each traffic density designation carries a minimum on-line hour requirement for pilots

* Connect the VATSIM database to flight plans so a pilot with too few hours could not file to a particular airport

 

Now that I have probably showed my ignorance, shoot back! There are smarter guys than me out there that can do much better than my idea ...

[John Traynor 959563]

Before i heard of vatsim i was one of these pilots who flew directgps from one location to the other without a care in the world.

I wanted to get into it further but found it very hard until one day i came across cyprusairways virtual to whom i belong to now.

One of my airlines routes indeed one of the biggest routes CY flies is from LCLK is to EGLL.

Until i joined this community i had no knowledge of complex procedures nor any good aircraft ( i was messing around with freeware ones off the net!) I am now flying PSS A330 A320's by wire exactly to manual.

Now, 2 months on, i am able to fly an a330 or a320 using the fms and am an able pilot who enjoys several hours of flying pleasure thanks to the help and support i have received from my fellow cy virtual pilots in getting a clueless me to the standard i have reached today.

My point in all of this?

Perhaps one of the biggest problems of vatsim is that many people who dont have any knowledge of flying procedures go onto vatsim thinking its just a harmless game. They seemingly are unable to comprehend thta there is more than 'logging on and flying around'.

Perhaps a requirement in the future for vatsim is for people to actually be accepted onto a virtual airline or if not at least sit a basic computer generated exam on flying procedures in order to be allowed to fly on the network?

Before i got the hang of flying on the network much reading, and offline flying and experimenting took place before i ventured into a flight online when there were other users around. Indeed my first 2 or 3 flights to heathrow i was accompanied through skype running concurrently with my simulation by one of my good cy virtual pilot friends who guided me through the complex airspace and holding patterns.

This kind of support should be given to one and all and maybe if rules and regulations change regarding the accession of new people onto the network, then maybe we will filter out those who are serious about learning and flying from those who think that vatsim is another msn gaming zone.

Just a thought..?

[Sean Reedman]

Good thoughts John - Vatsim is a learning environment and unfortunately not all pilots are like your good self who went out and learnt the procedures first - vatsim-UK does have Pilot mentors who guide new pilots through the process of VFR and IFR flying online so that goes someway to helping - Equally PRC is collating flying lessons but again this is voluntary at present - The argument could be that if we put too many barriers up we will not attract new members or on the other hand can we do without those unwilling to learn or abide by the COC.

 

Well done on your part - hopefully more will follow your trend.

[John Traynor 959563]

Good thoughts John - Vatsim is a learning environment and unfortunately not all pilots are like your good self who went out and learnt the procedures first - vatsim-UK does have Pilot mentors who guide new pilots through the process of VFR and IFR flying online so that goes someway to helping - Equally PRC is collating flying lessons but again this is voluntary at present - The argument could be that if we put too many barriers up we will not attract new members or on the other hand can we do without those unwilling to learn or abide by the COC.

 

Well done on your part - hopefully more will follow your trend.

 

Hi Sean,

Agreed. It is a difficult problem unfortunately no matter what decision is taken if any, will be at a cost. I honestly dont know a solution to stop these problems from occuring. As you say not everyone is willing to put the time in to familiarise or train themselves to fly properly around the globe and this is the biggest problem on vatsim, for its these our fellow pilots who cause the problems mentioned at the start of this thread at heathrow.

Heathrow is a complex environment to fly within at the best of times, its even more complex if someone attempts to fly into Heathrow Tower airspace or holding patterns without having any prior knowledge of holding patterns, atc commands, ILS Line up procedures or approach procedures.. This in turn causes problems for the more expereicned pilots who carry out their flights to the book and then are put off from flying to this amazing landmark airport by pilots who fly their aircraft on an as and when basis..

I have had that experience once before, when i flew my [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned aircraft(Cyprus Air A330) High altitude IFR to LHR from LCA. Following a 5 hr 10 min flight i was instructed to hold over LAM in the approach pattern expecting incoming arrival delays of 15 mins in holding pattern to land on the active LHR rwy.

Following my imp-lementation of all instructions received i entered the ILS line up que for the active and was shocked to discover that about a minute prior to touchdown, some IDIOT in a F16 decided to do a fly by directly across the rwy threshold, resulting in the go around of 4 aircraft qued for touchdown.

This added another 25 mins onto my flight time. The wife was not impressed. We were late going out for a reserved dinner at a restaurant!

Small price to pay but i cant help but feel that if any other members were carrying out flights like myself and this had happened to them more than once i fear they would become fed up and stop using the network resulting in a degradation of quality pilots flying on vatsim..

I hope i am wrong and this never happens.... but who knows the way things are its a possibility!

[Alistair Strong 899273]

Hi all,

Reading this thread I am amazed how all the controllers can manage to keep even some of their cool while dealing with such matters. As you can see (this being my third post) I am a total newbie to VATSIM, having done two sessions in total so far however I tried to do as much reading and research as I could before I joined and it shocks me that others do not do the same.

However one thing that you could do to make VATSIM more accesable to new pilots os to have a list of small, manned, starter airports on the homepage or PRC nice and obviously available. Just saying "start at a small airport" doesn't help that much as I had to ask for recommendations in another post on the forum. Also perhaps a link to a page with lists of standard times when the airports are most likely to have people there willing to help, for example:

EGFF > Cardiff > 6.30pm Tuesdays (thanks btw) would be perfect.

Regards

Alistair Strong

[Richard Green 810012]

Hi all,

Reading this thread I am amazed how all the controllers can manage to keep even some of their cool while dealing with such matters.

 

Alistair...

 

Controllers are human... and often they don't keep their cool. You just don't hear it because they are.... "preaching to the choir". Complaining here is like talking about fire safety to the fire brigade (department).

 

The people who NEED the help don't know about (care about) the help they could get here.

 

Some will always treat VATSIM as a "game", some will treat it as reality. The goal is to find somewhere in between that everyone can be happy...

 

But as you can't please everyone, I choose closer to reality. For those who crave fun, Microsoft made another simulator. Its called Crimson Skies... available for the X360 now

 

Until VATSIM makes pilot training mandatory, then we are out of luck for the most part. My thought was a tie-in with FSX, that once pilots p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed their virtual PPL, they got a link to get a PID from VATSIM.

[John Traynor 959563]

Hi all,

Reading this thread I am amazed how all the controllers can manage to keep even some of their cool while dealing with such matters.

 

Alistair...

 

Controllers are human... and often they don't keep their cool. You just don't hear it because they are.... "preaching to the choir". Complaining here is like talking about fire safety to the fire brigade (department).

 

The people who NEED the help don't know about (care about) the help they could get here.

 

Some will always treat VATSIM as a "game", some will treat it as reality. The goal is to find somewhere in between that everyone can be happy...

 

But as you can't please everyone, I choose closer to reality. For those who crave fun, Microsoft made another simulator. Its called Crimson Skies... available for the X360 now

 

Until VATSIM makes pilot training mandatory, then we are out of luck for the most part. My thought was a tie-in with FSX, that once pilots p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed their virtual PPL, they got a link to get a PID from VATSIM.

 

I could not agree with you more.

As someone who started off flying around an airport and is now an able pilot who likes to think he does things properly, joining Vatsim was at first hand daunting. The amount of information available was overwhelming and in many ways off putting. It confused me for the first few days, however once i found everything i needed to do and learn step by step, only then could i really appreciate the lengths to which vatsim goes to help its members achiever the maximum amount of training in order to use the service properly effectively and enjoyably.

That saying the biggest help i personally received was from my co pilot friends at Cyprus Airways virtual who guided me through the rigorous training i needed to undergo in order to be transformed from a 'superficial' pilot to one holding the knowledge of proper flying procedures and aircraft training.

Perhaps what Richard is saying SHOULD be implemented. As soon as people sign up to vatsim they are allowed onto a network possibly maybe a parrallel network to the one registered pilots are flying on now. This will be known as the training network. Each new person who enrolls is allowed access to this network in order to TRAIN with individual traning flight sessions with an exam at the end. Each exam allows them to proceed to the next stage and gather the neceesary points required to join the VATSIM network and fly online in a manner which is appropriate for all.

That saying this could cost us members. It will also ensure that the right kind of people use the network leaving the messing around fliers to log onto MSN gaming zone for their A320 'RED ARROW' style flying....

Is there anyway this could be implemented Richard?

[Luke Kolin]

Perhaps what Richard is saying SHOULD be implemented. As soon as people sign up to vatsim they are allowed onto a network possibly maybe a parrallel network to the one registered pilots are flying on now. This will be known as the training network. Each new person who enrolls is allowed access to this network in order to TRAIN with individual traning flight sessions with an exam at the end. Each exam allows them to proceed to the next stage and gather the neceesary points required to join the VATSIM network and fly online in a manner which is appropriate for all.

 

Please, this should never happen.

 

How many controllers are you going to have on the "practice" network? Who would want to control there? As it stands, you read through the Controller forums and see numerous cases of controllers who cannot get proper training in a dozen-member ARTCC - how are we going to get several thousand active VATSIM pilots through a training course?

 

The vast majority of active VATSIM pilots are good network citizens who want to do the right thing, and more often than not DO do the right thing. If the goal is to make VATSIM as rigorous as the real world, then all 15 pilots online at one time will be guaranteed a perfect experience.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[Richard Green 810012]

Please, this should never happen.

 

The vast majority of active VATSIM pilots are good network citizens who want to do the right thing, and more often than not DO do the right thing. If the goal is to make VATSIM as rigorous as the real world, then all 15 pilots online at one time will be guaranteed a perfect experience.

 

Luke

 

As Luke - in his usual way (it may NOT be sarcasm, but it does indeed come across that way usually)...

 

He does have a valid point...

There is no practical way to have another network with staffing.

 

There is in the US a dedicated teaching experience (The Training Academy), perhaps one day pilots would have to connect to that and learn proper procedures and get feedback on areas to improve in. I can dream at least. We make controllers jump through endless hoops and yet anyone can login to the "FLYING GAME" and off they go. I for one think that they should have to know the basics first ( flightplans, where to connect, why you can't pause, etc. ) I never think it will get to the virtual PPL, but I think they SHOULD know the basics before they are given a PID. Controllers take a basic test (in the US) before they get their CID... I think its time they return the favour to the pilots.

 

I would rather have 25 pilots a night who can fly and know what charts are, etc. Than 30 where 5 of them absorb all of my time and effort, and cause me to curtail the level of service to the ones who actually DID make an effort to learn.

 

No one (at least I am not) suggesting a REAL PPL for these people, but if someone can't use a GPS, read a ground chart, know how to connect or use SB3/FSINN, etc then they really should be LEARNING before they take the plunge. There are core competencies that we ALL need as pilots. There is of course a lot more, but if you don't know the basics then you not only dilute your experience, you dilute the experience of those around you.

 

For example - Yesterday my ATIS said Visual Approaches in use ( it was a great night )

 

I had apx. 10 pilots fly the visual great... then I had apx. 6 - 10 who couldn't land a plane without an autopilot if their life depended on it. I had one actually say " I am too close to the field to get my autopilot to work quick enough "

 

I replied " Its a visual approach, and you acknowledged a VISUAL approach"

 

The pilot then retorted "But I do see the field. I just nee my autopilot to land" ( I was actually waiting for the rim shot )

 

To wit I had 3 pilots actually key their mikes and laugh on channel.

[Luke Kolin]

As Luke - in his usual way (it may NOT be sarcasm, but it does indeed come across that way usually)...

 

I'm sorry I was misunderstood - I don't mean to be sarcastic, only to point out that the more restrictions we place on pilot membership at VATSIM, the fewer blips we have on the scopes. I do resort to the reductio ad absurdum a little too often, I'm afraid.

 

Pilot competency is a valid issue - no one should deny this. What I've consistently questioned is the mechanisms required to do something about it. I think there are always going to be people flying around who don't have the same skill levels as others, and who are going to complicate things somewhat for controllers. However, they are a completely different animal than the pilot who is causing a genuine disruption on the network, and we should not [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that every new pilot should just "go to the Zone". VATSIM provides a premium product, and there's always the temptation to say "come back when you're ready". The danger with such a strategy is that they may never come back. (It's the same thing that Cadillac and Lincoln did in the 1970s, and their future customers bought BMWs instead. BMW did it 15 years later, which is why Acura and Lexus do so well, etc. etc.)

 

With regards to the example you mentioned, I don't see any practical way to test for the basic ability to fly the aircraft without getting behind the yoke/stick and actually flying the darn thing. It's not much different from driving a car - you can learn the rules of the road and the theory behind shifting gears, checking blind spots, merging into traffic but it all takes second place to actually coordinating everyhting and learning what it all looks like when you do it for real.

 

While it might be aggravating to experienced pilots and controllers to see autopilot jockies (as I call them) in the air delaying things, those are the next generation of VATSIM pilots and there's a good chance that most of them will want to learn and improve their skills. Maybe your anecdote will be the motivation for that pilot you mention. The danger with requiring exams or (gasp) training is that it's a logistical challenge about two orders of magnitude greater than getting controllers trained and certified. As we've seen in other discussions, there are still difficulties with this and extending something to pilots would have even more. Let's get the kinks worked out with controllers first, and then maybe in 2008 figure out how significant a problem pilot traning (or the lack thereof) really is.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[Richard Green 810012]

With regards to the example you mentioned, I don't see any practical way to test for the basic ability to fly the aircraft without getting behind the yoke/stick and actually flying the darn thing. It's not much different from driving a car - you can learn the rules of the road and the theory behind shifting gears, checking blind spots, merging into traffic but it all takes second place to actually coordinating everyhting and learning what it all looks like when you do it for real.

 

 

Luke - I don't propose we test their flying ability. I propose we test via a simple test that they at least know HOW to do the things i mentioned.

 

Like:

File a Flightplan

Where to connect.

When to Connect etc etc

[George Anopov 895164]

I think the MAIN and the WORST problem in Heathrow is confusion with of selecting ACTIVE RUNWAY FOR DEPARTURE AND ARRIVAL.

First of all, the priority is always given to 27's. Only in case of strong winds and to eastbound direction, 09's are in use.

Here is our shedule of rwy's usage for this year

 

PS This indicates landing rwy

 

24/04/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

 

01/05/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

08/05/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

15/05/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

22/05/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

29/05/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

 

05/06/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

12/06/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

19/06/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

26/06/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

 

03/07/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

10/07/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

17/07/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

24/07/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

31/07/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

 

07/08/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

14/08/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

21/08/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

28/08/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

 

04/09/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

11/09/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

18/09/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

25/09/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

 

02/10/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

09/10/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

16/10/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

23/10/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

30/10/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

 

06/11/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

13/11/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

20/11/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

27/11/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

 

04/12/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

11/12/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

18/12/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

25/12/2006 - Before 1500 Local 27R - After 1500 Local 27L

 

01/01/2007 - Before 1500 Local 27L - After 1500 Local 27R

 

The second thing, pilots don't use Unicom freq. This could become a disaster in such vast airfiled like Egll. Please please please use it. Always announce at least:

1)Taxing intentions (including taxiways, links, hold names)

2)Lining up and or taking off

3)Airborne

4)When established on ils or localizer

5)When on final

6)Rwy vacated

7)Taxi to the gate (including taxiways, links, hold names)

 

+ always add RWY to all cases listed above.

 

Here is what could happen if a pilot simply don't announce his intentions on Unicom...

 

 

[George Anopov 895164]

Another thing, PLEASE connect multiplayer to your session. I have a lot's of experince when another aicrat simply drove into me. This really could become annoying when it happens right after a long-haul transatlantic flight, or prior to take off, when you are right on shedule, etc...

[John Traynor 959563]

After reading the discussion between Richard and Luke i do agree with both of you, it is a problem that isnt easily solved. Setting up anetwork would be horrendous to staff, but something must be done to maintain the level of reality and proffesionalism within the network.

Many people like myself, unfortunately never made it to commercial aviation. Personally speaking September 11th cost me my career because at the time prior to the attacks, i had succesfully completed the first few stages of the application process for British Airways' pilot training scheme which was suspended due to drastic cost cutting following the aviation global plummet.

So for me, Vatsim is as real as it gets, and i expect it to be as real as it can be.

What i dont appreciate is logging on and flying for my virtual airline, carrying out a 5 hour 14 min flight to EGLL from Cyprus on time and by procedure only to have my experience ruined by people who like to think they are TOP GUNS flying around the grand canyon.

Am not griping and i am not bitter its just so frustrating after everything goes to plan to arrive at my destination airport only to be confronted by fellow pilots seemingly flying in a world of their own.

Perhaps others can put forward suggestions regarding a sensible compromise to the problem?

I agree with you Luke it would not be feasible to start upa training network, for the reaosns you have stated in response to my earlier posting.

So how about getting someone to write out a procedures manual detailing EVERYTHING needed to know about approach into EGLL and departure from EGLL which would also include the relevant charts needed for pilots to succesfully use the airspace leaving the controllers h[Mod - Happy Thoughts]le free (at least from those who bother to read up on it?)

Just a thought what do you guys think?

[Daniel Finney 810884]

.........So how about getting someone to write out a procedures manual detailing EVERYTHING needed to know about approach into EGLL and departure from EGLL which would also include the relevant charts needed for pilots to succesfully use the airspace leaving the controllers h[Mod - Happy Thoughts]le free (at least from those who bother to read up on it?)

Just a thought what do you guys think?

 

Hope this goes a way to helping you out John

 

http://www.vatsim-uk.org/Airport-Information/London_FIR/London-Acc/EGLL/main.asp

 

 

Best Regards

D Finney