Kosovo Airspace

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

Isn't that the point?

[Alex Bailey 969331]

PS...Mods, you could at least have left a link to the moved topic in General Discussion rather than appear to be trying to bury this thread in a forum which doesn't see the traffic that General Discussion sees.

 

Paul, it's all smoke and mirrors

 

Heh...from a utilitarianism point of view quite possibly. I think Bentham had it right, and we just need to try harder. The screaming will get louder until the silence reigns from their departure.

 

I knew the "take it or leave it" mentality of VATSIM would pop up eventually. Haven't you guys realized that people want to see VATSIM improve, and they utilize their electrons to hopefully improve the network? You are already losing qualified volunteers right and left who no longer believe they can be effective in managing the lower levels for you, and one day you may get what you ask for and start losing members all together. It would save you money, though, not having VATSIM around any longer.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

guessing we cant take anyones word on policy changing as was previously stated it would be if the notam changed? obviously has changed.

 

whats the word? or are we choosing to ignore the topic in hopes people just accept it?

 

 

had vatsim remained neutral, and just told everyone to leave theyre personal baggage at home before connecting, there wouldnt be an issue of having to choose which side is right. if thats the case, might aswell run for political office since we seem to be able to do what the real guys cant do

[David Klain 874106]

OK folks, clearly a case where people are trying to debate this in the forums and trying to allude to things that I a guess I'm too obtuse to figure out. One of the things I did in response to this thread was review all the NOTAMS (real world) myself. I then contacted Kyp as it appeared the only part of the policy which was NOT still in effect was the NATO airspace closure. Kyp then sent me the NOTAM that showed it is still in effect.

 

If we remove all the wording and cut it to the bare bones, the current policy says two things:

 

(1) If people file with BKPR, they don't receive ATC services from a FIR. If they file with LYPR, they do.

(2) There is a circuitous routing in and out of the airspace if people are using a certain ICAO code.

 

Both of those are in effect based on the joint staff NOTAM site (real world) used by the Department of Defense. The discussion raised by one poster in this thread that a NOTAM is invalid because the issuing agency doesn't have the authority to do so is invalid....the NOTAM is recognized (and complied with by the US DOD...that's good enough for me).

 

If anyone has some other info that contradicts this, feel free to email it to Kyp (or myself) and we'll look into it...otherwise I think this horse is dead...

 

Dave

[Frank Otero]

I then contacted Kyp as it appeared the only part of the policy which was NOT still in effect was the NATO airspace closure. Kyp then sent me the NOTAM that showed it is still in effect.

 

How about the policy in this PSA that restricts those wanting to work ATC in Kosovo unless they do so under the sponsorship and training of LYBA. This VATSIM rule does not mirror the real life situation in Kosovo, where controllers are Kosovars sponsored by their own government and trained in Iceland, not Serbia. Actually, this real life situation did not just happen last week and has been in place for several years.

 

I wonder who was at the table when this PSA was drafted, since it seems to accommodate only one side.

 

If you want to honor this NOTAM (LYPR vs BKPR) that is so obviously politically designed, then this is definitely a dead horse and life just goes on. However, if measured with the same stick, then the restriction on ATC membership mentioned above needs to be addressed.

 

It is something to think about for LYBA of all the traffic (even if only the few quoted by some) that avoids their FIR over a rule that brings no benefit to aviation (RW or VATSIM) and just isolates them.

[Ivan Kovacevic 920456]

How about the policy in this PSA that restricts those wanting to work ATC in Kosovo unless they do so under the sponsorship and training of LYBA. This VATSIM rule does not mirror the real life situation in Kosovo, where controllers are Kosovars sponsored by their own government and trained in Iceland, not Serbia. Actually, this real life situation did not just happen last week and has been in place for several years.

 

 

Frank, did you actually read the PSA? The statement I quoted, written by you either implies you haven't even read the docomeent, or have a very poor understanding of written English language.

[Frank Otero]

Dear Ivan,

 

Yes, at times I have problems with several languages. Perhaps you can enlighten me and tell me what this means.

 

3.2 – Staffing of Kosovo-based ATC Positions

 

· All Air Traffic Control positions related to Pristina must be staffed by personnel authorized by

SCGvACC and no independent group of members shall be permitted to staff the position without

receiving a permission from the SCGvACC staff.

 

· No person shall be unreasonably denied visiting rights to the Serbia and Montenegro vACC for the

purpose of staffing Kosovo based ATC positions.

 

Please tell me what it is that I am missing. Who is SCGvACC?

[David Klain 874106]

Frank,

 

That is not part of the real-world NOTAM, that is VATSIM policy and applies anywhere in the world. People can't just jump on and control...All of the airspace is carved up and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to virtual FIRs/ARTCCs. We do create new ones all the time...once enough people are interested and willing to join/create the new ARTCC so that it can function and be viable. To date that has not happened with Kosovo...so it remains part of the overlying ARTCC.

 

You are doing a great job of throwing out a lot of bombs for someone with limited time on VATSIM and apparently equally limited understanding on how things work here. As I indicated, I am happy to further explain things (as is Kyp) via email if you desire, but this thread is now pointless. The original question has been answered and senior VATSIM staff have bent over backwards to explain why the decisions were made and the rationale behind them. At the end of the day not everyone will be happy with every decision VATSIM makes and it appears that is the case here...but the policy and rationale behind it stand until we make a decision it is appropriate to change it.

 

Dave

[Ivan Kovacevic 920456]

Seems I have to explain after all.

 

The policy says a person must be PERMITTED to staff Pristina by SCGvACC, not trained, befriended, sponsored or anything else. It applies for almost every bit of Europe airspace. The vACC that covers the airspace needs to give a permission to an already certified controller before he/she can control in their airspace as a visiting controller.

 

Over the past 5 years that I've been a member of VATSIM, I haven't seen a single person that *publicly* showed any interest in actually controlling there.

[Frank Otero]

Dave,

 

This PSA goes far to protect the sensitivity of a group who finds BKPR insulting. However, it totally neglects the sensitivity of a Kosovar who has to obtain permission from the LYBA to open an airspace that has been under Kosovo control in real life for a while. Hence, this part of the PSA needs to change where Kosvars can go to a neutral entity to get authorization to open their own airspace.

 

I may not have been here for a while, but I do recognize political stink. I have e mailed about this before, got my answer, and have silently complied by totally avoiding the airspace.

 

Sorry if you find my comments militant, but if you are going to protect sensitivities it needs to be a two-way road.

 

Regards

[Frank Otero]

The policy says a person must be PERMITTED to staff Pristina by SCGvACC

 

Ivan,

 

You find the approved ICAO code “BKPR” offensive, and you demand understanding of your feelings, and it seems that you got your wishes granted. But how do you expect a Kosovar to go to YOU for PERMISSION to work an ATC position in their own country? We are not talking about a VISITING controller here wanting to control in a country other than theirs.

 

Could that be the reason there are no requests?

[Kyprianos Biris]

Just to make something clear; VATEUD Division never said that any Kosovo vACC procedures will have to go via Serbia & Montenegro.

 

In the absence of an official vACC in Kosovo area the PSA policy details are as you read because having a PSA area totally uncontrolled was not an option.

 

VATEUD has a very clear policy on vACC's be it official or unofficial. Check http://www.vateud.org policy on them.

 

Once a team turns up to man and operate a vACC there will be absolutely no barrier to their development.

 

The process is clear, as soon as the prerequisites are met they first start as an unofficial vACC and then when they have the prerequisites they become a stand alone independent vACC.

 

I and Peter Nielsen VATEUD1 are here to make sure the door will always be open to such volunteers and no policy or individuals will ever block such developments.

 

Simply no one has contacted Peter until now with a concrete proposal to set up a vACC for Kosovo area.

 

I hope this clarifies these misinterpretations that once again troll in this forum thread outcomes of blowing up wrong impressions or definitions of docomeents.

[Todor Atanasov 878664]

Welcome to the Balkans!!!

Was that necessary?

[Peter Ingerslev Nielsen]

Dave,

 

This PSA goes far to protect the sensitivity of a group who finds BKPR insulting. However, it totally neglects the sensitivity of a Kosovar who has to obtain permission from the LYBA to open an airspace that has been under Kosovo control in real life for a while. Hence, this part of the PSA needs to change where Kosvars can go to a neutral entity to get authorization to open their own airspace.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Frank, you are mixing up a lot of different topics which are irrelevant to this matter and above all you seem to now be accusing us of not being neutral, which I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you we are.

 

The facts are that from an operational point of view that a stand alone Kosovar vACC will never have a chance to stand on its own feet for more than the first enthusiastic 2 or 3 weeks either due to lack of manpower, controllers, training facilities, traffic or resources not to mention that the whole FIR is the size of a post-stamp and all of these reasons are the background as to why we arranged with the Serbian vACC to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist the local's who wanted to open and man Pristina to be trained and sharing the resources of a larger and well established European vACC with some mixed results. Mixed because there is little interest or traffic into or out of the area, but nonetheless its a win-win for all parties.

 

I understand from your numerous posts that you have a vested interest in this matter, however considering your home Division is not VATEUD I am certain that you will continue to enjoy the rest of this wast and wide world rather than to concentrate on this part of the planet which truly is outside of your sphere of influence.

 

Kind regards

[Frank Otero]

The facts are that from an operational point of view that a stand alone Kosovar vACC will never have a chance to stand on its own feet for more than the first enthusiastic 2 or 3 weeks either due to lack of manpower, controllers, training facilities, traffic or resources not to mention that the whole FIR is the size of a post-stamp and all of these reasons are the background as to why we arranged with the Serbian vACC to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist the local's who wanted to open and man Pristina to be trained and sharing the resources of a larger and well established European vACC with some mixed results. Mixed because there is little interest or traffic into or out of the area, but nonetheless its a win-win for all parties.

 

Until you wrote the above, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you did try to make a fair agreement out of a difficult situation and did the best you could with what you had.

 

Now it seems that for you the possibility of a Kosovo project was dead from the start and in order to save your political capital you took the road of least resistance. Where you really expecting a Kosovar to ask permission from a Serbian to work an ATC position in Pristina? Was anyone else invited to your “deliberations” besides you and the Serbian interest?

 

I am not saying you went out of your way to neglect a group, but I do not think that with what we know now this policy is neutral, regardless of how many flights or the interest in the area there is. Your unwillingness to take another look at it while quoting numbers and interest speaks volumes.

 

Please direct me to my home division, apparently I have not been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned one yet. It seems you really believe in keeping everyone in there little corners

 

Could someone please lock this post, because I cannot just sit quietly in the face of such comments, even if I am “tresp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing” on the European division.

[Frank Otero]

Was that necessary?

 

Todor,

 

Totally unnecessary. My sincere apologies. it was not addressed to the people of the Balkans, but rather at the politics of part of the area.

[Peter Ingerslev Nielsen]

The facts are that from an operational point of view that a stand alone Kosovar vACC will never have a chance to stand on its own feet for more than the first enthusiastic 2 or 3 weeks either due to lack of manpower, controllers, training facilities, traffic or resources not to mention that the whole FIR is the size of a post-stamp and all of these reasons are the background as to why we arranged with the Serbian vACC to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist the local's who wanted to open and man Pristina to be trained and sharing the resources of a larger and well established European vACC with some mixed results. Mixed because there is little interest or traffic into or out of the area, but nonetheless its a win-win for all parties.

 

Until you wrote the above, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you did try to make a fair agreement out of a difficult situation and did the best you could with what you had.

 

Now it seems that for you the possibility of a Kosovo project was dead from the start and in order to save your political capital you took the road of least resistance. Where you really expecting a Kosovar to ask permission from a Serbian to work an ATC position in Pristina? Was anyone else invited to your “deliberations” besides you and the Serbian interest?

 

I am not saying you went out of your way to neglect a group, but I do not think that with what we know now this policy is neutral, regardless of how many flights or the interest in the area there is. Your unwillingness to take another look at it while quoting numbers and interest speaks volumes.

 

Please direct me to my home division, apparently I have not been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned one yet. It seems you really believe in keeping everyone in there little corners

 

Could someone please lock this post, because I cannot just sit quietly in the face of such comments, even if I am “tresp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing” on the European division.

 

Mr Ortero,

 

Your request to lock is acknowledged.

 

If you wish to transfer Division then this is in your own hands as you choose the Division which you are currently in, not I and no one else.

 

If you want to transfer then all you have to do is to request a transfer and it will be done, mail [email protected] or go to http://cert.vatsim.net/vatsimnet/regch.php

 

No one is keeping anyone in any place or corner, the member makes that choice.

 

As a Pilot it really does not matter where you fit in, if you have any interest in controlling then it is entirely different.

 

If your interest lays in controlling Pristina Airport then yes, you need to transfer to VATEUD and then choose a home vACC which can provide you with the training you need, which in this case happens to be the Serbian and Montenegro vACC.

 

The choice is all yours.