Question for ZLA Center controllers

[Christopher Mauro]

I have been flying in ZLA more and more, and I am curious about something.

 

Why no "radar services terminated" when an aircraft is leaving the airspace?

 

Just a thought that I can never seem to get an answer to.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I have been flying in ZLA more and more, and I am curious about something.

 

Why no "radar services terminated" when an aircraft is leaving the airspace?

 

Just a thought that I can never seem to get an answer to.

 

The way it was taught to me, which came from Pat Scanlan (RW SoCal controller) is that "Frequency Change approved" implies that radar services are terminated. So you are restating what is already given by saying "radar services terminated, change to advisory frequency approved" or "radar services terminated, frequency change approved."

 

The only times I use "radar services terminated" are

1. when an aircraft cancels IFR,
   
2. (when I am on at the TRACON level) an aircraft leaves Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C airspace, or a TRSA,
   
3. when an aircraft completes a radar approach into an uncontrolled field, or
   
4. (when I am at the Enroute level) the aircraft leaves my airspace, going oceanic, and ZAK_FSS is online. Here is where I use "radar services terminated, squawk two zero zero zero, contact San Francisco Radio on 131.95."

 

Other than that, Frequency Change Approved implies that radar services are being terminated.

 

BL.

[Jeremy Bucholz 899127]

Well said, additionally, if you are freq changed to a tower that does not provide radar services, for example if your IFR into Henderson (HND), the statement (contact Henderson Tower) implies that radar services are terminated.

[Mike Cassel 849958]

I do say "radar services terminated" in this situation, but it's just one of those situations where the 7110.65 has no phraseology applicable. It's pretty clear from the context that radar services are terminated if there is no next controller, so I don't think its particularly consequential either way.

 

ZLA as an ARTCC doesn't require controllers to say it, or to not say it.

[Wade Williams 877539]

I'm not yet center certified, but I say it as an approach controller when pilots are leaving my airspace and no center controller is on.

[Keith Smith]

Well said, additionally, if you are freq changed to a tower that does not provide radar services, for example if your IFR into Henderson (HND), the statement (contact Henderson Tower) implies that radar services are terminated.

 

Hmmm...that doesn't seem quite right. Radar services are implicitly terminated when an aircraft is handed to a tower on a visual approach, however, I haven't read about any implicit termination of radar service [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with handing an aircraft over to a non-radar tower that is conducting an instrument approach.

 

How is the pilot to know if the tower has radar or not? I have received 'radar services terminated' notifications every single time I've conducted IAP's to non-radar towered fields.

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

The Bible[/u]"]5-1-13. RADAR SERVICE TERMINATION

 

a. Inform aircraft when radar service is

terminated.

 

PHRASEOLOGY-

RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED (nonradar routing if

required).

 

b. Radar service is automatically terminated and

the aircraft needs not be advised of termination when:

 

NOTE-

1. Termination of radar monitoring when conducting

simultaneous ILS/MLS approaches is prescribed in

para5-9-7, Simultaneous Independent ILS/MLS

Approaches- Dual & Triple.

 

2. Termination of radar monitoring where PAR equipment

is used to monitor approaches is prescribed in

para5-13-3, Monitor Information.

 

1. An aircraft cancels its IFR flight plan, except

within Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C airspace, TRSA, or

where basic radar service is provided.

 

2. An aircraft conducting an instrument, visual,

or contact approach has landed or has been instructed

to change to advisory frequency.

 

3. At tower‐controlled airports where radar

coverage does not exist to within 1/2 mile of the end

of the runway, arriving aircraft shall be informed

when radar service is terminated.

 

REFERENCE-

FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 10-5-6, Radar Tolerances.

 

4. TERMINAL. An arriving VFR aircraft receiving

radar service to a tower‐controlled airport

within Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C airspace, TRSA, or

where basic radar service is provided has landed, or

to all other airports, is instructed to change to tower

or advisory frequency.

 

5. TERMINAL. An aircraft completes a radar

approach.

REFERENCE-

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para7-6-12, Service Provided When Tower is

Inoperative.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

How is the pilot to know if the tower has radar or not? I have received 'radar services terminated' notifications every single time I've conducted IAP's to non-radar towered fields.

That's weird. I've never heard that phrase used for handoffs to non-radar towers. The expectation that we have is that we'll be separated from other traffic, and whether it be radar (approach and center) or visual (tower), it doesn't really matter. The approach controller has the responsibility of ensuring separation's existence before handing off to a non-radar tower.

[Brad Littlejohn]

How is the pilot to know if the tower has radar or not? I have received 'radar services terminated' notifications every single time I've conducted IAP's to non-radar towered fields.

That's weird. I've never heard that phrase used for handoffs to non-radar towers. The expectation that we have is that we'll be separated from other traffic, and whether it be radar (approach and center) or visual (tower), it doesn't really matter. The approach controller has the responsibility of ensuring separation's existence before handing off to a non-radar tower.

 

Try the KSFO Tower LiveATC feed, when an aircraft is transitioning the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B to the south. Tower will tell them 'radar services terminated, remain on your present beacon code, contact San Carlos Tower'. What I don't know, is if KSQL Tower has radar.

 

BL.

[Charan Kumar]

Try the KSFO Tower LiveATC feed, when an aircraft is transitioning the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B to the south. Tower will tell them 'radar services terminated, remain on your present beacon code, contact San Carlos Tower'. What I don't know, is if KSQL Tower has radar.

Those are VFR acft, but I was of the impression that the OP qn and discussion was about IFR acft, as in when they leave ZLA airspace, or leaving SoCal airspace when CTR is offline? That would be a VATSIM-ism as in r/w you don't expect neighboring radar areas not to be covered ...or I could be completely mistaken.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Try the KSFO Tower LiveATC feed, when an aircraft is transitioning the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B to the south. Tower will tell them 'radar services terminated, remain on your present beacon code, contact San Carlos Tower'. What I don't know, is if KSQL Tower has radar.

 

I've also heard LAX do this often with aircraft on the miniroute... Not sure if SMO has radar or not and I can't recall if I've only observed it with aircraft transitioning southbound or if they use it with northbound guys as well.

 

Man I miss controlling ... Need to get back into this with you guys soon.

[Keith Smith]

How is the pilot to know if the tower has radar or not? I have received 'radar services terminated' notifications every single time I've conducted IAP's to non-radar towered fields.

That's weird. I've never heard that phrase used for handoffs to non-radar towers. The expectation that we have is that we'll be separated from other traffic, and whether it be radar (approach and center) or visual (tower), it doesn't really matter.

 

Your point about separation is correct, however it does matter because if they terminate radar service then you must report leaving the final approach fix during an instrument approach.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Man I miss controlling ... Need to get back into this with you guys soon.

I was wondering where you've been! haha

 

Your point about separation is correct, however it does matter because if they terminate radar service then you must report leaving the final approach fix during an instrument approach.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying!