Flying in Europe

[Mike Belden 1054128]

Hello Vatsim Europe,

 

I have been flying in the U.S my entire time on VATSIM. I want to change things up a bit, and do some European flying. (because flying back and forth across the U.S gets boring sometimes ). Anyway I have a few questions to ask because I know the way things work in Europe is different than the U.S

 

1. How are SIDs/STARS different in Europe? Are there even SIDs and STARs? Or am I just vectored in and out?

2. Where do I get the routes from? vRoute? Simroutes?

3. How is your FL determined in your Flightplan? Iis it pre determined?

 

 

That's all the questions I have for now, but I'm sure some will arise later

 

Thanks

[Sebastien Bartosz]

Hi Mike,

 

1. SID's and STAR's (not ALL STAR's) are runway based, that is why you should never state the SID when you file your flightplan, you will most likely get it wrong. Example: at LFPG, there are, 10+ SID's out of only OPALE let's say..

 

2. vRoute or VATRoute should be fine..

 

3. It is most commonly North=Even South=Odd

But actually FL depends on the airway, so you can have sometimes North=Odd South=Even for a particular airway..

This info can be found on Enroute charts, however, this information is sometimes not depicted on the charts. It depends how detailed they are.

[Thomas George 827476]

1) Sebastien is right in terms of not filing the SID in your flightplan by and large, although as a pilot I sometimes will specify the SID given that I normally file about 5 minutes before take-off anyway. That way it gives the controller some idea that I know what I'm doing.

 

2) I haven't got the link to hand but there's a free tool on the net called "RouteFinder" which I use.

 

3) One more thing on that http://mbev.net/wikka/AirWays . Lluís del Cerro wrote about this for the PRC and with his European roots it does have a pretty European flavour to it.

 

Any queries, feel free to post here or drop me a line.

 

Regards,

[Thomas George 827476]

Found that link http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ .

[Mike Belden 1054128]

So when you ask for clearance, the controller will give you waypoints to follow on your departure? And vice versa for arrival?

[Johan Grauers]

That's one way to put it. We'll [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign you a SID and for arrival center will [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign you a STAR. Like so:

"Delta 565 (five six five, no sixtyfive used in europe ), cleared to heathrow via Aros 3 G departure, squawk 6012".

That would be out of runway 19R at ESSA in Sweden.

 

And if you are arriving a standard clearance is:

"Scandinavian 41 cleared to arlanda, Trosa2T arrival for runway 26 [when ready descend FL 110]".

 

Note here, no dep frequency, no initial climb clearance. All that is found in the charts (if it differs ATC shall tell you so)

[Sebastien Bartosz]

Mike,

in short, Radar Vector Departures do not exist in Europe (as far as I'm concerned...), you can find RNAV or just Conventional (CONV) departures. (Which are NON RNAV, but do the same routing out..)

En example here:

RNAV: PG092 OPALE

CONV: Intercept CGN R-086 to D8.5 CGN, then turn left to OPALE.

It comes down to the same thing.

SIDs are usually broken down this way:

 

Here we'll use OPALE1G again..

 

OPALE : First waypoint on the flightplan

 

1 : I do not actually know for sure what this represents, but being logical, I can deduce that this may be the first edition of this departure. (Just like the LOGAN 4 departure at KBOS is the 4th edition of that departure. I read that somewhere..)

 

G : The letter represents a runway, for this departure (OPALE1G) the G represents 09R @ LFPG. Just like OPALE1A is for 27L

 

Now for STAR's it's quite similar, they can be runway based, or airport configuration based (East Config, West Config / North Config, South Config)

You have your last waypoint on the flightplan: we'll use RENSA here. (@ LFPG, they are not runway based, but airport configuration based..)

 

We'll brake it down again: RENSA4W

 

RENSA : Last waypoint on the flightplan

 

4 : Again, most likely the 4th edition of this STAR

 

W : In this case, it simply means West. Meaning that LFPG is in West Config today (Landing 27R, 26L)

 

You can also have RENSA4E, which is for East config (LFPG Landing 09L, 08R)

 

Or even, RENSA4P (Prop aircraft for LFPG West config)

or RENSA4H (Prop aircraft for LFPG East config)

 

So as you can see, it can be quite complicated, so what I suggest is just having all your charts ready and have your ears open. And maybe add in your flightplan remarks that you're not used to flying in Europe or something similar.

 

Seb

[Thomas George 827476]

I'd only add that sometimes an initial altitude is given in some airports. John is entirely right that it's all in the relevant charts, but not everyone goes beyond pressing the button in the FMS. Given the varying nature of airspace in EUD, I don't know whether local procedure is to give an initial altitude or not... I just do as I'm told when I ask for the clearance.

 

Vectored departures, well they are not so common but there's no reason other than controller workload or local restrictions why a controller couldn't help you in that regard, but if there's only TWR and no TMA/CTR then you won't get it..

 

Regards,

[Sebastien Bartosz]

What I meant to say is that as far as I know, there are no published radar vector departures in Europe, but you can always give one (Which I've done many times for whatever reason) if the pilot in particular has no charts etc.

[Martin Loxbo]

I'd only add that sometimes an initial altitude is given in some airports. John is entirely right that it's all in the relevant charts, but not everyone goes beyond pressing the button in the FMS. Given the varying nature of airspace in EUD, I don't know whether local procedure is to give an initial altitude or not... I just do as I'm told when I ask for the clearance.

Remember that you will always be given an initial climb clearance (bust altitude, stop level, whatever you want to call it). If the controller didn't say an altitude/level, it will be in the charts. If you don't have the charts, you have to ask ATC! Never [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume! (Personally as a controller I also try to keep this info in the controller information, so it's a good idea to read that too. )

[Martin Loxbo]

3. It is most commonly North=Even South=Odd

And most commonly in other countries West = Even and East = Odd (just like in the US). It can be difficult to keep track of all the differences, so just play along if ATC wants to bump you up or down 1000 ft.

[Pedro Diogo 985361]

Remember that you will always be given an initial climb clearance (bust altitude, stop level, whatever you want to call it). If the controller didn't say an altitude/level, it will be in the charts. If you don't have the charts, you have to ask ATC! Never [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume! (Personally as a controller I also try to keep this info in the controller information, so it's a good idea to read that too. )

 

This might help:

 

[Martin Loxbo]

Yep, and if I'm not mistaken the green figure (East-West) applies to all European countries that are not mentioned in the blue figure.

[Mike Belden 1054128]

wow! I never realized how different and more complicated flying in Europe sounds....I guess ill just have to try it before I actually know how it is

[Johan Grauers]

:shock: wow! I never realized how different and more complicated flying in Europe sounds....I guess ill just have to try it before I actually know how it is

Give it a few flights and you'll get the hang of it I'm sure

[Daniel Gomes]

Hello Mike,

 

For me, is just all the way arround! It seems to me very dificult to fly in the USA!!!

 

I guess I just have to try it .... So, you should do the same in Europe...

 

Cheers,

[Johan Grauers]

I've been to the US once, was great fun and not at all that difficult as people say (except for finding the SID and STAR when you've never done it before, took lots of time). So I think if you just read up a bit and give it a go you'll find that vatsim just doubled in size

[Wycliffe Barrett]

The only thing I will say is by qouting the most British of British men, Sir Winston Churchill who said and I aks you to remember that "we are two nations divided by a common language"

 

ergo where you will say "American Airlines twofiftyfive" we will say "American Airlines 2-5-5"

 

Of course we do use the Queens English whether it is a controller from Scotland England Wales and Northern Ireland but rest [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured our regional accents will cause some problems for you

 

Flying in the UK and Eurospe will be different for you in the same was as when I flew in Hawaii was different for me, but if you have half the fun I had in hawaii you'll have a hoot (good time).

 

 

Wycliffe

[Mike Sweeney]

1. Helpful info for pilots new to Europe: http://www.vorstaedt.de/eurprimer.html

2. Charts: http://charts.vateud.net/

3. Real world charts for Europe (after free registration): http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadcms/eadsite/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=25&Itemid=3.html

4. UK charts: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=6&Itemid=13.html

5. UK charts (alternate source): http://chartfinder.vatsim.net/

6. Routes: http://www.vatroute.net/

 

Enjoy!

[Jean-Louis Richon]

And also, for FRANCE , english version of SIA Charts ( Aéronautic Information Service) :

 

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/frameset_aip_uk.htm

 

Enjoy

 

Jean louis

http://vatfrance.org/