New taxi phraseology.

[Christopher Mauro]

Hello VATUSA,

As both a virtual pilot and controller, I fly through the US and encounter some ATC that are actually using the new taxi phraseology, effective by the FAA on June 30, 2010. With many air traffic controllers in VATUSA, I have been listening to them use the new taxi phraseology and they have been excluding one important little detail in the clearance.

This is what I mainly hear.

Runway xxx via xxxxx.

 

According to FAA Notice 7110.528, the new phraseology is.

Runway xxx, taxi via xxxxx.

 

This is not to get anyone angry, but I just wanted to bring this up to see if everyone is on the same page, which is probably a no. And I also know that this is new brand new, and many controllers are just getting used to it, but like I said, I just wanted to see.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Hey Chris,

 

Yes, this has been an issue I've noticed as well. It's important to recognize that you're still giving a command. "Taxi" is the command, and without it, you're basically saying a pointless statement. "Runway 34R via Charlie" sounds more like a pilot readback than an ATC instruction.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Hell, I'm still catching myself using the "taxi to" phraseology... *face palm*

[Daniel Hawton]

It should also be known that Gary (VATUSA1) has said that this new phraseology, though usable, is not mandated on VATSIM until he makes a release saying it is effective on VATUSA. We train by the TRC, and the TRC shows the old phraseology still. I use the new phraseology because I also control rw, but there are some people who use the old and apparently that is still okay. Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

[Romano Lara]

It should also be known that Gary (VATUSA1) has said that this new phraseology, though usable, is not mandated on VATSIM until he makes a release saying it is effective on VATUSA. We train by the TRC, and the TRC shows the old phraseology still. I use the new phraseology because I also control rw, but there are some people who use the old and apparently that is still okay. Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

[Richard Gerrish]

"Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

[Christopher Mauro]

Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

[Arthur Heiser 1052801]

Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

 

[Tommy Rogers 971040]

yep

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Ernesto .

 

The thing about the TRC, though, is that any TA can edit it. I know Gary hasn't said it's official yet, but I really hope there aren't any ARTCCs who are continuing not to teach the phraseology just because it's not VATUSA official. I can understand not using it at the center and maybe approach (although the new phraseology applies even when there's no hold short instruction), but for S1s controlling and in training, I really hope everybody is learning the same thing. Eventually some of those guys are going to transfer around, and from my experience with S1s already, it's very hard to break students away from "taxi to" phraseology. Just saying.

[Daniel Hawton]

Ernesto .

 

The thing about the TRC, though, is that any TA can edit it. I know Gary hasn't said it's official yet, but I really hope there aren't any ARTCCs who are continuing not to teach the phraseology just because it's not VATUSA official. I can understand not using it at the center and maybe approach (although the new phraseology applies even when there's no hold short instruction), but for S1s controlling and in training, I really hope everybody is learning the same thing. Eventually some of those guys are going to transfer around, and from my experience with S1s already, it's very hard to break students away from "taxi to" phraseology. Just saying.

 

I just find it funny (maybe even disappointing) when a TA (and I don't mean ZJX's TA.. since I got inquired if I was referring to him) doesn't even use the old phraseology... let alone the new one.. not even in the ballpark! I do like all the responses, and Ernesto's picture though. haha

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

Hey Chris,

 

Yes, this has been an issue I've noticed as well. It's important to recognize that you're still giving a command. "Taxi" is the command, and without it, you're basically saying a pointless statement. "Runway 34R via Charlie" sounds more like a pilot readback than an ATC instruction.

 

I have personally heard taxi instructions just like this many times at many different airports, including O'Hare in real life.

 

It should also be known that Gary (VATUSA1) has said that this new phraseology, though usable, is not mandated on VATSIM until he makes a release saying it is effective on VATUSA. We train by the TRC, and the TRC shows the old phraseology still. I use the new phraseology because I also control rw, but there are some people who use the old and apparently that is still okay. Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

Where exactly is the problem? As a pilot, I would understand this to say that I am departing on rwy 28L, and I should taxi to it via Bravo and Tango. I would read it back saying something along the lines of "ok, rwy 28L via Bravo and Tango, N460CP"

 

Of course, I am remembering that this is VATSIM, and we aren't paid to do this. I am also remembering that 7110.65 is NOT a docomeent I need to use while on VATSIM.

 

Best,

JV

[Daniel Hawton]

It should also be known that Gary (VATUSA1) has said that this new phraseology, though usable, is not mandated on VATSIM until he makes a release saying it is effective on VATUSA. We train by the TRC, and the TRC shows the old phraseology still. I use the new phraseology because I also control rw, but there are some people who use the old and apparently that is still okay. Then there is some people who use neither and make up their own stuff like "Taxi via bravo tango to runway 2 8 left, report holding short" and get the TA spot

 

Where exactly is the problem? As a pilot, I would understand this to say that I am departing on rwy 28L, and I should taxi to it via Bravo and Tango. I would read it back saying something along the lines of "ok, rwy 28L via Bravo and Tango, N460CP"

 

Of course, I am remembering that this is VATSIM, and we aren't paid to do this. I am also remembering that 7110.65 is NOT a docomeent I need to use while on VATSIM.

 

Best,

JV

 

The problem is is that in VATUSA, we're supposed to teach (and be taught) in accordance with the VATUSA TRC to make things uniform. The phraseology included is not even close to what is in the TRC, nor what has been the correct taxi phraseology at some point in the recent period of times from the FAA (and by recent I mean the last 5-10 years). If you have a TA that can't even get in the right ballpark with phraseology, how can you expect him to teach students correctly?

 

While you may understand it as a pilot, to any US controller, it sounds retarded. The way you said you'd read it back is the correct way it should've been given to you plus the word taxi... "runway 28 left taxi via bravo tango." The TRC still has the older phraseology, "Taxi to runway 28 left via bravo tango" but most ARTCCs have adopted the new FAA taxi phraseology.

[John Cierpial 1008209]

Daniel,

 

What you need to realize is that this transition in phraseology is one that has significantly changed recently, especially with the need to now grant permission to cross each runway. The TRC was written prior to this transition and as such, includes the older "out of date" phraseology. With that, Gary and Tom have been working very hard on many things behind the scenes, and therefore, I'd imagine the TRC has been bumped down on their priority list. It's a simple matter of exhibiting patience really.

[Daniel Hawton]

Daniel,

 

What you need to realize is that this transition in phraseology is one that has significantly changed recently, especially with the need to now grant permission to cross each runway. The TRC was written prior to this transition and as such, includes the older "out of date" phraseology. With that, Gary and Tom have been working very hard on many things behind the scenes, and therefore, I'd imagine the TRC has been bumped down on their priority list. It's a simple matter of exhibiting patience really.

 

No I understand perfectly.. all I said was most ARTCCs have adopted the new phraseology. If you read further up you'll see I was referencing a recently appointed TA's taxi phraseology of "Taxi via Bravo Charlie to runway 28 Left, report holding short" as the issue, not the non-use of new phraseology versus old phraseology. You'll even see in a previous post that I said the new phraseology hasn't been put to official use yet by VATUSA1.

[Tom Seeley]

Actually I fervently wish I could edit the TRC and have the changes SHOW, but I cannot. It's a priority issue, at least to me, but not possible at the moment.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

It should also be noted that the TRC is just that -- a Training Resource Center -- and not an official governing docomeent surrounding the way every ARTCC needs to teach. (This is coming from a guy who helped develop it.) While it is indeed published and maintained by VATUSA, official word on how we're supposed to teach is disseminated via e-mail/NOTAMs from VATUSA1, 2, or 3.

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

Why would VATUSA publish something on its website that is NOT official?

 

I understand that it is a training resource, but it IS published. Given that it is published on the VATUSA site, does that not mean that VATUSA endorses it, and that it becomes a "controlling" docomeent as VATUSA is above the vARTCCs in the US.

 

Call me crazy, but it seems that if your vARTCC rule is contradicts a VATUSA rule, VATUSA's rule is the controlling rule, given VATUSA being the governing body of the vARTCCs.

 

Maybe I am wrong,

JV

[Harold Rutila 974112]

The change came at a time when there is a long list of tasks to be completed which supercede updating a few lines in the TRC. It would make little sense to tell ARTCCs not to teach this until the TRC is updated. What we teach comes directly from the FAA, not VATUSA. When we need to adapt an FAA requirement into the VATSIM spectrum, such as RVSM and the new taxi phraseology, that comes from the applicable divisions.

 

Robbie, that is too funny. I bet they made those when the penguin movies were popular last year. A tad late LOL.

[Darrol Larrok 1140797]

Penguins don't even fly.

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

What we teach comes directly from the FAA, not VATUSA. When we need to adapt an FAA requirement into the VATSIM spectrum, such as RVSM and the new taxi phraseology, that comes from the applicable divisions.

 

What we teach comes directly from the FAA, not VATUSA.

 

That's very interesting.

 

When we need to adapt an FAA requirement into the VATSIM spectrum, such as RVSM and the new taxi phraseology, that comes from the applicable divisions.

 

Exactly my point! The division has NOT yet adapted it. Yet, it is being taught as the standard, when, for VATSIM purposes, it MAY be different than what the FAA does now.

 

Best,

JV

[Don Desfosse]

Penguins don't even fly.

 

But from the looks of it, they can line up and wait quite nicely....

[Darrol Larrok 1140797]

Ducks are probably even better!

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Exactly my point! The division has NOT yet adapted it. Yet, it is being taught as the standard, when, for VATSIM purposes, it MAY be different than what the FAA does now.

The division has not yet officially adapted it for use on TRACON and en-route positions where tower services are provided when the respective TWR is offline. As far as I'm concerned, it's been adapted into training programs for S1s and S2s.

 

What we teach comes directly from the FAA, not VATUSA.

That's very interesting.

Let me clarify that it comes directly from the FAA within the confines of what we can do on VATSIM. I'm on the same page with you when it comes to our view on ASDE-X. I'm on the same page with you when it comes to our view on simulation of things that are not possible given current technology. I could dig through the .65 and find several other examples. But the simulation of current taxi phraseology is more than possible at this point, just not necessarily at the approach and center levels.

 

Back in '06 when the FAA changed TIPH phraseology from "Taxi into position and hold" to "Position and hold," we never waited for VATUSA to say it was okay to teach that.

 

Taking your point to an extreme, when this division (even back in SATCO days) was founded, were the controllers using VATUSA-regulated phraseology? Was there even something similar to a training resource center back then? If not, then why didn't they just start saying things like, "Go to thirty four left and let me know when you're ready for takeoff," "Cleared to takeoff," "Fly your course," etc. Why did the first controllers around here adapt FAA phraseology to begin with?