How do us X-Plane users fly SIDs and STARs?

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

On all the SID and STAR charts I've seen, the waypoints along the route don't acually exist as a navaid in X-Plane. How am I meant to know where I am along to know when to turn, to go higher/lower? And how am I meant to enter it into the FMC?

 

Thanks

[Charan Kumar]

Not all SID and STAR are RNAV, meaning an intersection only type or point in space using co-ordinates. SID and STARs can be flown using radials too. If you are indeed asking about the RNAV types, then the SID and STAR charts contain the lat/lon co-ordinates. In the XPlane FMC, you can enter the lat/long co-ordinates of that wpt and fly it. Vertical navigation is mentioned on the chart and you plan accordingly to meet the altitude requirements.

 

There is a website, which I can't recall at the moment, that provides nav updates, which I am sure someone can give you the link to.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

Navigraph?

[Keith Smith]

No, this one. You can use the route generator at simroutes to enter a route and export it as an XPlane flight plan that can be loaded into the FMC (minus altitudes).

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

And the plan follows the exact route of the SID and STAR?

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

And the plan follows the exact route of the SID and STAR?

If you're wanting an RNAV STAR and are pre-programming it via the FMC (like UFMC, not that default thing), you just pick the star from the list, like you would in RL. For conventional STARs, just dial in your radios, set your gauges, and fly it manually. While I have UFMC, I haven't really used it much yet—I find conventional STARs more demanding, and more fun.

 

In RL, you're often not allowed to fly an RNAV STAR unless your FMC has it in its database—you're not allowed to manually enter waypoints and altitudes, as the risk of a dangerous typo resulting in an error during a low and dangerous phase of flight is too high.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

Do know a tutorial which teaches you to fly it conventionnally, with radios and gauges?

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

Do know a tutorial which teaches you to fly it conventionnally, with radios and gauges?

http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ is the link tossed around the most for getting the hang of NDB and VOR navigation. It's for FSX, but of course the principles are the same in X-Plane. If you can fly arbitrary radials on a VOR, to or from the station, and can tune both radios to different VORs and transition from one to the next, and can navigate with NDB/ADF, you should be able to fly a conventional STAR.

 

I find Vancouver's BOOTH7 arrival to be a great example of a conventional STAR that uses two VORs and either an NDB or DME for determining distances and intersections. You can find Vancouver charts here: http://www.czvr.ca/_Pilot_Resources/_Charts/PDF/CAP2BC/cap2bc2010.zip.

 

Get your plane near BOOTH (you can get it in the air and stable, then just drag it on the map to the intersection, or just north-east of it, flying toward it), save the 'situation' in X-Plane, and then you can practice flying it over and over again. Notice how the bearings to the LU NDB on the bottom right determine the intersections along the path, but you can also determine them based on DME from the YVR VOR (the funny rounded boxes with arrows beneath the arrival path.

 

At LANNE, you turn right to transition to tracking the YPK VOR instead of the YVR VOR, and pick up its 260 radial outbound, at which point ATC would vector you in, or you could fly yourself in visually if there's no ATC online. Notice how once you're on the outbound radial from YPK, intersections are now determined by radials from the YVR VOR.

 

If you can get the hang of using multiple gauges together, keeping your situational awareness, and always read the textual part of the STAR in the corner, you'll find they're pretty doable. Don't worry about the clutter—if you learn in a slow aircraft like I did, you'll have plenty of time between intersections to set up the dials and radios for the next step.

 

While you're doing this all based on the gauges, I do advise using the GPS or XHSI (XHSI is wonderful) to make sure you're going where you think you're going. You'll see the waypoints coming up, and it'll help you stay oriented, at least at first. Once you get the hang of it, try flying it using only the gauges, and then check your flight path on the map when you're done to see how well you did. Don't worry much about altitudes at first, either. One thing at a time, and you'll avoid confusing yourself prematurely

 

If you're wanting something super simple, like just using NDBs only at first, depart YVR off of 08R, fly direct to the WC NDB, then the XX NDB, and you'll be lined up for an approach to Abbotsford (CYXX) runway 07.

 

If you don't have the waypoints on your map in X-Plane, go to http://data.x-plane.com/ and grab the latest set.

 

Hope this helps, and let us know if you need any help! IFR navigation can be demanding, but consequently rewarding.

[Keith Smith]

Here's a tutorial on how to fly one of the STARs into LAX without an FMS: http://pilotcerts.laartcc.org/object/howto_fly_riivr1.html

 

Note: this refers to an older STAR which has been replaced by the slightly simpler RIIVR2. The concepts are the same, though.

 

Really, flying a pilot nav STAR is not very different from flying enroute airways. If you can do one, you can do the other.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

Does that data include all the fixes as shown on the chart, so I wouldn't have to enter the long/lattitude of each point along the SID/STAR?

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

Does that data include all the fixes as shown on the chart, so I wouldn't have to enter the long/lattitude of each point along the SID/STAR?

Just grab it and see It's impossible to say whether each fix you desire will be there, but it should just take you a couple minutes to download and install it and see for yourself.

 

If it doesn't have what you want, then the Navigraph data will. I personally do have all the fixes on my map in X-Plane, but I don't recall if that was from the x-plane data update or the Navigraph updates I've run for UFMC.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

When you get UFMC, do you still have to pay for all the Navigraph updates separately, or does the program do that? Just I bought UFMC yesterday (waiting for license key).

 

Thanks for all your help so far.

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

When you get UFMC, do you still have to pay for all the Navigraph updates separately, or does the program do that? Just I bought UFMC yesterday (waiting for license key).

 

Thanks for all your help so far.

Navigraph is a separate service, but it's pretty cheap, and you get a few free credits to try it out. Navigraph doesn't put out the data in UFMC format, though, so you'll need to run it through a little converter first. The UFMC docs describe this.

 

Pricing for Navigraph is here: http://www.navigraph.com/www/fmsdata_about.asp

[Wade Williams 877539]

You have to pay for Navigraph separately.

 

It should be noted that you can keep your X-plane data updated by installing the updates found at:

 

http://data.x-plane.com/

 

However, those only include fixes and NavAids - they do not include FMC data. For that, you'll still need Navigraph. However, if you're content with manually programming the waypoints of a procedure, that will allow you to do it in 99% of the cases.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

Im abit confused, each fix also says the direction and distance to the relevant VOR/NDB, as shown here

http://www.freewebs.com/vogelair/CYVR.pdf page 2

 

But, none of the VORs or NDBs or anything have DME equipment, so what am I meant to do?

[Wade Williams 877539]

Im abit confused, each fix also says the direction and distance to the relevant VOR/NDB, as shown here

http://www.freewebs.com/vogelair/CYVR.pdf page 2

 

But, none of the VORs or NDBs or anything have DME equipment, so what am I meant to do?

 

I'm confused. Most of the VOR's I saw in those charts do have DME (as designated by the little "D" in the box with the name/freq). Are you sure you're tuning your radios correctly?

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

Im abit confused, each fix also says the direction and distance to the relevant VOR/NDB, as shown here

http://www.freewebs.com/vogelair/CYVR.pdf page 2

 

But, none of the VORs or NDBs or anything have DME equipment, so what am I meant to do?

First off, the NavCan-supplied CAP I linked to earlier is current, and easier to read. I always find American versions of charts a bit darker and more cluttered. I really do think you should take a look at the official charts from NavCan, they're clearer, and have slightly more information in this case. Link again here: http://www.czvr.ca/_Pilot_Resources/_Charts/PDF/CAP2BC/cap2bc2010.zip

 

Ok, ignoring the outdatedness of the chart (it's now BOOTH7, like in the one I linked you—it's always a good idea to have current charts if available)...

 

Don't confuse bearings with distance, and the VYR VOR certainly is DME equipped, and is the only one here they give distances to (no distances to NDBs are given). The only fixes that give DME are the ones from BOOTH to LANNE, as they are all based on the R-037 radial from YVR. The lines going toward the LU NDB are bearings, not distances.

 

For example, BOOTH is 51 DME from YVR (D51 on your chart, in a symbol on mine), and 6 NM from VITEV. BOOTH is also the point where your relative bearing to LU is 161°.

 

STAVE is 37 DME from YVR, and 9 NM from SHARD. STAVE has a relative bearing to LU of 135°.

 

In both of the above examples, you can determine your location either based on DME, or the NDB radials, your pick. You can do the entire STAR without DME at all, in fact.

 

Notice that the segment from LANNE to MILLS does not display DME of any kind, only the segment length, namely 10NM. Likewise, MILLS and BASRA are not defined at all by distance, but on the intersection of the YPK R-260 radial and two different YVR radials, although only MILLS (YVR R-024) shows this on your chart (it shows both on mine).

 

The distances given between intersections are informative, to let you know how much time you have before the next one—they're not meant to define their locations, as they're relative distances to other waypoints, not absolute distances to a navaid. If you were just adding them up as you went by, you'd accomeulate errors over time, so use the DME distances or radials that actually define the intersections instead.

Edited August 24, 2010 at 05:57 PM by Guest

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

Im abit confused, each fix also says the direction and distance to the relevant VOR/NDB, as shown here

http://www.freewebs.com/vogelair/CYVR.pdf page 2

 

But, none of the VORs or NDBs or anything have DME equipment, so what am I meant to do?

 

I'm confused. Most of the VOR's I saw in those charts do have DME (as designated by the little "D" in the box with the name/freq). Are you sure you're tuning your radios correctly?

YPK doesn't do DME, as the lack of the D implies, yeah. DME to YPK isn't used in any STARs, though, thankfully

 

That's one thing the NavCan charts don't portray, but you can subtly deduce that YPK doesn't have DME equipment:

 

The Pitt Meadows VOR/NDB A approach implies that it doesn't—if you look closely, the distances given increase as you get closer—they're DME from the CYVR 08R ILS (IVR), oddly enough, not from YPK. It's a strange approach, and shows that YPK does not, in fact, have DME equipment—even without the giveaway of not having a "D" in a box

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

I think I've got manual flying of them sorted now,

 

But, what do I do, when I don't have the chart in my FMS, and don't have all the navaids in X-plane, and the chart doesn't give the lattitude and longitude (seen here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-676E91783992F3529621224F0BE4DCDB/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_6-3_en_2010-07-29.pdf).

 

This is the airport I use most aswell :/

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

I think I've got manual flying of them sorted now,

 

But, what do I do, when I don't have the chart in my FMS, and don't have all the navaids in X-plane, and the chart doesn't give the lattitude and longitude (seen here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-676E91783992F3529621224F0BE4DCDB/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_6-3_en_2010-07-29.pdf).

 

This is the airport I use most aswell :/

If you're wanting to fly the SID via the FMS, use an RNAV SID if there is one available. For this one, which is based on NDBs and VORs, it's more of a manual thing.

 

I'd be frankly pretty surprised if the NDBs and VORs weren't there in X-Plane by default. So if you load your aircraft at EGLL and look at the map, they're not there? How are you determining that they don't exist for you? If you're simply dialing in their freqs while on the ground, you may not have reception yet. Your best bet is to look at the map to see what's there. Sometimes you can't pick them up till you're airborne.

[Charan Kumar]

As Jordan said, this is not a RNAV dep. This departure needs to be flown the way it has been explained below in the chart. LON D6 would be 6 DME LON VOR, LON R037 will be the 307 radial of the LON VOR, and so on

 

By the way, BAPAG 514305N 0000724W, that is the Lat/Lon coordinate. It translates to BAPAG N51° 43" 05' W000° 07" 24' (I hope I got the quotes right)

[Ryan Geckler]

As Jordan said, this is not a RNAV dep. This departure needs to be flown the way it has been explained below in the chart. LON D6 would be 6 DME LON VOR, LON R037 will be the 307 radial of the LON VOR, and so on

 

By the way, BAPAG 514305N 0000724W, that is the Lat/Lon coordinate. It translates to BAPAG N51° 43" 05' W000° 07" 24' (I hope I got the quotes right)

 

Close

 

BAPAG N51° 43' 05" W000° 07' 24"

[Wade Williams 877539]

Gabriel,

 

My advice: ignore the FMS for a little while and spend some time flying conventional procedures using just VOR's/NDB's. You'll become a much better pilot.

 

Also, run, don't walk to the ZLA pilot certification program. It will teach you all this and more.

 

http://pilotcerts.laartcc.org/page/overview.html

[Jordan Krushen 1135174]

My advice: ignore the FMS for a little while and spend some time flying conventional procedures using just VOR's/NDB's. You'll become a much better pilot.

Couldn't agree more. Also, you won't die when your FMS does something you're not expecting—and it will.

[Gabriel Carpreau 1161959]

I think I've got manual flying of them sorted now,

 

But, what do I do, when I don't have the chart in my FMS, and don't have all the navaids in X-plane, and the chart doesn't give the lattitude and longitude (seen here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-676E91783992F3529621224F0BE4DCDB/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_6-3_en_2010-07-29.pdf).

 

This is the airport I use most aswell :/

If you're wanting to fly the SID via the FMS, use an RNAV SID if there is one available. For this one, which is based on NDBs and VORs, it's more of a manual thing.

 

I'd be frankly pretty surprised if the NDBs and VORs weren't there in X-Plane by default. So if you load your aircraft at EGLL and look at the map, they're not there? How are you determining that they don't exist for you? If you're simply dialing in their freqs while on the ground, you may not have reception yet. Your best bet is to look at the map to see what's there. Sometimes you can't pick them up till you're airborne.

 

The VORs and NDBs are there, it's just the fixes aren't, but if that isn't meant to be an RNAV chart..

 

I'm very surprised, since Heathrow has so much traffic. Infact, it seems no SIDs or STARs have RNAV charts in the UK :/