LUAW Effective Today (9/30/2010)

[Daniel Hawton]

@Bryan, LAUW wasn't implemented due to runway incursions... it was exclusively implemented to bring it in line with ICAO's phraseology.. and that's it. To me, that's not a valid reason to changing phraseology. I tend to operate under the concept of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it". Thanks NTSB and FAA, for changing something that wasn't broken.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

I understand the reasons posited, and I don't care. Because to me, "Line Up And Wait" is an instruction you give to a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]room full of five-year-olds, not to a licensed and certified pilot. That may or may not be a stupid reason to hate the new phraseology, but there it is, and you'll be hard-pressed to change my mind about it.

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

@Bryan, LAUW wasn't implemented due to runway incursions... it was exclusively implemented to bring it in line with ICAO's phraseology.. and that's it.

 

Exactly! That's why it was so stupid to change it. I was just addressing some of the people who seem to think that "position and hold" was causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion amongst foreign pilots. That wasn't the case at all.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

i prefer "hurry up and wait" myself

[Ross Carlson]

The problem is that when the FAA switches to new procedures out of the blue, you just end up causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion amongst our domestic pilots

 

Bryan, is LUAW actually causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion among domestic pilots at your facility? (Are you a local controller? For some reason I thought you were enroute.) "M[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion" evokes some pretty scary imagery in my mind ... and I'm getting on a commercial jet tomorrow ...

 

It's hard for me to phrase this question without sounding like I'm challenging your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ertion ... I'm really just having a hard time understanding the backlash this change has generated from r/w controllers. I'm not a real world controller so I lack the benefit of experience here. I am a real world pilot, though, and I just can't see how this is so confusing for anyone. And I fly rarely compared to commercial pilots. Seems like they'd get used to it very quickly.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

wasnt there as much debate when the US implemented RVSM? here we are a little over 5 years later and its just normal now.

 

if LUAW stays, itll be the norm soon too when everyones has had time to get used to it

[Jason Baxter 920557]

Yes but RVSM increased efficiency and actually contributed to the system, it was not done just for the sake of it after having manipulated the darn thing in as many times in the previous 5 years.

 

Personally I don't care who came up with the good idea, it just has to be a good idea.

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Bryan, is LUAW actually causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion among domestic pilots at your facility? (Are you a local controller? For some reason I thought you were enroute.) "M[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion" evokes some pretty scary imagery in my mind ... and I'm getting on a commercial jet tomorrow ...

 

Ha ha!! No, no, you're good to go Ross. I am enroute, so the change does nothing to me, but I have already heard stories. Daniel or one of the local guys can probably comment better, but I have been told that many of the commercial pilots, and almost all of the GA pilots failed to get the memo on the new phraseology. The GA pilots in particular have NO CLUE what the controllers are talking about.

 

In true FAA fashion, safety was never compromised. It wasn't a safety issue before the phraseology change, nor is it now. There are just pilots not understanding what it is the controllers want them to do, and as a result, there is actually a loss of efficiency taking place.

 

It will just take some getting used to on everyones' part. My issue is that there is nothing to be gained from the change. If there was an operational advantage, or increased safety, or whatever, I would be first in line to support the change, i.e. the RVSM example. However, literally nothing is gained from this change at all. Just seems senseless.

[Daniel Hawton]

Many pilots didn't get the memo. My facility was fortunate enough that, being a military base, we can have training specifically to go over the new phraseology. Downside: the pilots started using the phraseology before us.. IE, "Buck 110, runway 7R, position and hold" "Line up and wait runway 7R, buck 110.".. some of them apparently didn't get the memo.. we told one guy today line up and wait and he sat lined up with the taxiway centerline at the hold short.

 

@Bryan, I agree. Nothing is gained. I see more lost than gained from this move. We have lost our "seemless" phraseology... "Continue, Traffic holding in position" after telling an aircraft to line up and wait. Uhh? Hold, wait, make up your mind!!

 

One can only hope that when the notice expires, it is not renewed or placed in the next change. *crosses fingers!*

[Ross Carlson]

However, literally nothing is gained from this change at all.

 

I would argue that there is at least a small gain in understanding for non-US pilots flying into the US. Is that small gain worth the short-term minor loss of understanding for US pilots that didn't get the memo? Probably not ... but once everyone gets the memo, we'll all be on the same page, and I see that as a good thing. Again, this is just the opinion of a non-pro real-world pilot.

 

As an anecdote, I really like this change when it comes to VATSIM. More than once in the past I have had non-US pilots have no clue what to do when I say "position and hold." When I realize that they don't get it, or that they are interpreting it as "hold position", I issue "line up and wait" and they get it right away.

[Jason Baxter 920557]

Poor them, I use taxi into position and hold and got the same result.

I even know some spanish since I control so close to Mexico and occasionally get non-english pilots.

[Aaron Essary 1140658]

The problem is that when the FAA switches to new procedures out of the blue, you just end up causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion amongst our domestic pilots

 

Bryan, is LUAW actually causing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion among domestic pilots at your facility? (Are you a local controller? For some reason I thought you were enroute.) "M[Mod - Happy Thoughts] confusion" evokes some pretty scary imagery in my mind ... and I'm getting on a commercial jet tomorrow ...

 

It's hard for me to phrase this question without sounding like I'm challenging your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ertion ... I'm really just having a hard time understanding the backlash this change has generated from r/w controllers. I'm not a real world controller so I lack the benefit of experience here. I am a real world pilot, though, and I just can't see how this is so confusing for anyone. And I fly rarely compared to commercial pilots. Seems like they'd get used to it very quickly.

 

I am a real world pilot as well. Working on IFR rating at this time. I have gotten use to "line up and wait," but I still miss the "position and hold" phrase.

 

I feel the same way as Rob does (stated above).

[Aaron Essary 1140658]

Ah shoot, I thought page 2 was the last page. ..........

[Stephen Faison 920525]

Many pilots didn't get the memo.

 

I guess to help increase the awareness somewhat, at least at the airport I fly out of, they are broadcasting a 'notice' about it over the ATIS. If I remember correctly from a flight over the weekend it was something like, "...line up and wait phraseology now in effect for airports across the nation..."

 

Not sure how many airports are actually putting this in the ATIS though...

[Brad Littlejohn]

Many pilots didn't get the memo.

 

I guess to help increase the awareness somewhat, at least at the airport I fly out of, they are broadcasting a 'notice' about it over the ATIS. If I remember correctly from a flight over the weekend it was something like, "...line up and wait phraseology now in effect for airports across the nation..."

 

Not sure how many airports are actually putting this in the ATIS though...

 

All of the majors that I've called or have contacts at the Tower. I'd expect it to be there for at least a month.

 

BL.

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

I don't see what all the hubub is about - you will simply get used to it as many others did.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

I received plenty of notices about it. From AOPA to FAA Safety Brief e-mails to Flying Magazine's free e-mail subscription and posters in the FBO, if you're somewhat internet savvy, it's not that hard of a change to find.