ZLA Pilot Certification Program

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Well Fellow Pilots, I did it. Tonight I completed the I-11 ZLA Pilot Cert Checkride. What a rush. If you are not familiar with their program you should check it out here http://pilotcerts.laartcc.org/page/Home for the full scoop. A really good program and lots of fun in the process.

 

Give it a go, you won't regret it.

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

My friend and I finished ours on Tuesday. It's an excellent program and every new pilot should complete it.

[Charan Kumar]

Congratz Randy, 10 and 11 have been escaping me for months now...about time I got around and finished it!! I-11 is a sure shiny armor

[Miguel Frias]

I've done it as well! Very worthwhile, challenging and self-paced.

 

I too am I-11 proud!

[Andrew Doubleday]

It's been great to see a lot of people going through the ratings over the past couple of months. I've lost count of how many ratings I've conducted during that time period, but since mid August I'd have to say I've submitted somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 or so certifications (just by myself).

 

I've seen the difference from when a number of you started out at the V1 cert to now and it's truly awesome to see the improvement in confidence on frequency and navigational skill it puts into most of you (especially those without any prior real world aviation experience).

 

I wholeheartedly agree that everyone should give this a shot. I always recommend it to anyone I observe struggling. By completion of the program, you really should be able to handle just about anything the network can toss at you. You'll find yourself far more prepared when flying (from weather conditions to flight planning to chart/airway navigation to situational awareness and even ATC communications). You'll recognize and overcome your personal limitations throughout the course of the program.

 

in my honest opinion, all that completes a pilot's side of the bargain on the network. More well prepared pilots allow for controllers to provide services far more effectively and efficiently. It makes for a more enjoyable and realistic experience in the long run for all involved. congrats to you recent graduates. Hope to see you continue to fly with us.

 

 

Regards,

 

AJ

[Frank Otero]

AJ,

 

Can a pilot, in some cases, combine two checkrides in one flight? For instance, the V-1 and V-2, where after the pattern work needed for V-1 you can continue flying the short VFR flight for V-2.

 

Or do you have to wait to be awarded each rating before moving to the next?

 

Thanks

[Keith Smith]

Frank,

 

The moment the controller informs you that you've p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed the rating, you can move onto the next. You do NOT need to wait for the roster to be updated. The roster is updated through a multi-step manual process, hence the allowance for pilots to be able to move ahead as quickly as possible. We don't want you to hold off from starting the next flight while we update a database...so, keep flying!

[Frank Otero]

Excellent, thanks Keith.

[Davor Kusec 990407]

Is this program sanctioned under the new VATSIM pilot ratings/training system?

[Jason Baxter 920557]

Is this program sanctioned under the new VATSIM pilot ratings/training system?

 

Negative, however that doesn't detract from it's meaning and importance a single bit. The ZLA program actually pre-dates pilot training by several years.

[Keith Smith]

Davor,

 

The reason it is not sanctioned is because I believe there isn't sufficient overlap between the ZLA Pilot Cert program and the current VATSIM P1 rating to warrant ZLA becoming an ATO. I was the VP Pilot Training for vatsim for a little while, and during that time, clarified the vision regarding ATO's, so I'm very much in tune with how the VATSIM program and 3rd party programs will interact.

 

When the P2 and P3 ratings come about, I will consider submitting an application to have ZLA considered as a P2/3 ATO.

 

My apologies for not adding this to the site's FAQ, it really should be in there.

 

Keith

Edited November 26, 2010 at 05:31 AM by Guest

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

The ZLA program is first cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and will meet a pilot's needs very well on VATSIM. Don't wait for ratings, jump on this as I expect we will be able to grandfather past graduates once we get there.

[Davor Kusec 990407]

Thanks for the information guys. I've got an instructor rating on ATC side of things but I spend just as much, actually probably more, time flying so I might seriously look into the program becuase I've heard great feedback from other controllers and pilots.

[Miguel Frias]

The ZLA program is first cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and will meet a pilot's needs very well on VATSIM. Don't wait for ratings, jump on this as I expect we will be able to grandfather past graduates once we get there.

 

Precisely. It was a pleasure doing all of the exams and I find it a must in VATSIM. All pilots should be encouraged to participate in the program. P2/3/4 fit perfectly in the ZLA program.

 

Miguel

[Luke Kolin]

Don't wait for ratings, jump on this as I expect we will be able to grandfather past graduates once we get there.

 

This is a fascinating statement.

 

As the P1 requirements were being created, we had a philosophical disagreement as to what level knowledge of the structure of VATSIM would be required. No matter what side of this issue one is on, the practical result of including knowledge of VATSIM structure is that you can't grandfather anyone from ZLA into a P1 rating, because the requirements are different and anyone who received an external certification will by definition have not covered a significant part of the P1.

 

To suggest that you'll be able to grandfather ZLA graduates flies in the face of your statement on April 12th of this year, where you stated Yes, we still have no plans for grandfather people into any rating. Do the work, take the test, or not. You've obviously changed your mind on this matter (by 180 degrees) and I'd be personally very interested in hearing your reasoning why. It's OK to change your mind, I'm just curious.

 

The more practical implication of allowing grandfathering is that you've pretty much made the planning process for P2/P3/P4 (or whatever we want to grandfather people into) superfluous, because we cannot put any requirement into the VATSIM rating that doesn't already exist in the external party's rating. If we do and still grandfather people into the VATSIM rating, it means that the requirements really aren't required and can be safely ignored in some cases. That's going to get interesting if you plan on grandfathering an external rating that misses a requirement, yet insist that the ATOs cover it.

 

I fear there are a lot of implications of grandfathering that will unduly complicate your life in the future, that far outweigh whatever benefits you feel this step would have.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

Everyone should just do the ZLA program right now anyway because it's a good program and it will make you a better pilot. Can't go wrong with MORE ratings, especially when the gas is free.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Luke - nah, but a nice try.

 

When we designed the ratings we made the provision that not every ATO had to offer every rating. Keith has stated he doesn't want, at this time, to change the ZLA program to fit P1, which is just fine. Others can do it. VATCAN even discussed making a ZLA rated-specific cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] to give them those missing pieces and sign those guys off on P1; they might still do it, or someone else might do it. The parts missing can be covered in about 30 minutes or less, I suspect, and would not require one to do any sort of practical flight test, just a quick oral or written. Bada bing, bada boom.

 

As to grandfathering, the thought there is, if the ZLA program is accepted to issue P2/3/4 ratings and it doesn't materially change their program, why wouldn't we grandfather folks who had already done the ZLA rating (and have the prerequisite P1 from elsewhere)? What would be ignorant would be to say those who get a ZLA rating after it is approved for P2/3/4 get a VATSIM rating but those who did the identical work prior have to repeat the work. One of the reasons I got sold on the current construct of letting ATOs tell us how they plan to do it was for this very reason. A successful legacy program can be quickly leveraged and put into the ratings program.

[Luke Kolin]

Luke - nah, but a nice try.

 

I'm not sure what I was trying, beyond getting a clarification for this reversal of policy.

 

The parts missing can be covered in about 30 minutes or less, I suspect, and would not require one to do any sort of practical flight test, just a quick oral or written. Bada bing, bada boom.

 

There are some logistical challenges and policy issues to this since VATCAN and ZLA would be separate entities, but those are really tangential to our discussion. It's worth noting that what you describe isn't grandfathering at all - it's merely differences training. I don't have a problem with this at all. Our own Flight Academy and pilot rating system is being restructured in this fashion - there are numerous overlapping skill sets that are needed for either training or aircraft ratings, and it's a lot more efficient (not to mention attractive for our pilots) to merely demonstrate competence in areas not previously covered.

 

Grandfathering to me implies something much more - if you have non-VATSIM rating X, you automatically are giving VATSIM rating Py even if there are differences in the areas covered (where X covers less than Py). That is my concern, not merely dealing with a new rating at the ATO level to cover differences between prior ratings and the VATISM Pilot Ratings curricula.

 

As to grandfathering, the thought there is, if the ZLA program is accepted to issue P2/3/4 ratings and it doesn't materially change their program, why wouldn't we grandfather folks who had already done the ZLA rating (and have the prerequisite P1 from elsewhere)?

 

It's very sensible to do so. What concerns me with such a result is that it has the significant possibility of skewing the planning process of further ratings in favor of training organizations with existing programs that have graduated a significant number of pilots. What happens if there's discussion about feature X in the P3, which is both a great addition to the rating but would cause 300 pilots who received a ZLA rating to need a differences program before they can get the P3? What will win, the integrity of the P3 and including desirable features, or integrating a successful legacy program?

 

What would be ignorant would be to say those who get a ZLA rating after it is approved for P2/3/4 get a VATSIM rating but those who did the identical work prior have to repeat the work.

 

Are you implying that you were ignorant seven months ago? I don't think you were - or are you now implying that P2/3/4 will need to match ZLA if they express an interest in granting these ratings?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke