Thomas Benton 917980 Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:04 AM Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:04 AM Since when is a full set of Jep charts been a requirement to fly on vatsim? Twice now I was denied a clearance because I didnt have the SID TWR wanted. At KSEA the departure only state to fly to a radial from the sea vor. You mean to tell me the TWR guy couldnt have just said that? Is that too much for him to type? Also I am getting a bit tired of a controller(usually a student ) jumping onto a position just as I am beginning to taxi or am already at the hold point on the runway only to get instructions to go to another runway? Shouldnt he just let us go and go through the entire procedure for other a/c who show up after he signs on. Ok thats enough bitching now a suggestion. If there is a non voice rated student on tower or approach couldnt we allow the a/c to respond via voice while he typed his messages. Switching from APP to TWR is usually pretty busy setting up for the landing, and people with slow machines are hung up trying to type and prepare to land? Wouldnt it be more efficient if the a/c could reply to text commands via voice? Thomas [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Mifsud 928114 Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:15 AM Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:15 AM (edited) The controller should not deny you clearance because you dont have the SID. They should just say vectors to XXX or something like that. ARTCCs should have a procedure in their SOPs about what to do when a pilot dosent have a SID. Usually its just vectors to XXX instead of cleared to XXX via the XXX departure radar vectors to XXX... There is no reason for not just saying vectors to XXX if you dont have the SID. I've never had that happen to me but I think the controller should go through the regular procedure and let you take off the runway you are at. Then switch over to the new runways for the new aircraft. However, I can see where they are comming from, wanting to do things right. But that is an extreme inconvienience to the pilot. Although the ATC is always nice This has been debated many times. Check out this post! Five Pages! http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=4387 Joe Edited November 3, 2005 at 03:17 AM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Mifsud 928114 Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:16 AM Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:16 AM Oh also check out www.myairplane.com for all the charts, you can print them off and everything. Or, www.airnav.com which has a ton of other information about the airport and charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Wollenberg 810243 Posted November 3, 2005 at 06:37 AM Posted November 3, 2005 at 06:37 AM Flying without charts is amateurish, to say the least. Should you be denied clearance because you don't have the appropriate charts on board? No way! But you should at least make the effort to acquire charts for your flight, and plan a decent route. Charts are available in so many different places these days (for free mind you), that it's really ridiculous for a pilot to not be able to pull up the appopriate charts. Bryan Wollenberg ZLA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Naslund Posted November 3, 2005 at 08:36 AM Posted November 3, 2005 at 08:36 AM Hi, This chart issue came up in Scandinavia as well where i do most of my flying & controlling. Back in the bad old days you could have a controller issuing a SID which he got from his brand new shiny "updated this morning" Jeppesen package and i was sitting there with an old chart i got from the VACC/ARTCC website which was fine yesterday but not today. There was no or very little control over which charts were valid. Since you are not obliged to depart via SID i had to ask for vectors those times it happened. No big problem but of course it is nicer to be able to accept the SID without having to read back "Unable blablabla departure, request vectors" Luckily, nowadays most VACC's/ARTCC's we have proper controleld charts on their webistes and although it might not be a requirement i think that controllers should use charts that are available for pilots on their website. Personally i think that this should be the criteria for charts. If they are published on an VACC/ARTCC website or there are links to the charts, they should be used by ATC & Pilots alike. Most European VACC's and US ARTCC's have great charts or chart-links on thier websites and they are easily accesible. Then i think that it is reasonable to ask the pilot to go to the website and get/check the charts unless he is already airborne. Sometimes having charts on the VACC/ARTCC websites is not possible for various reasons. Perhaps they are not publically available or there might be copyright issues etc etc... In those cases i don't think it is reasonable that ATC expects the pilots to have charts and i think they have to live with this until they publish something on their own websites. If i go flying somewhere where i am not familiar i usually check the VACC/ARTCC website first for charts, notams, scenery etc etc...... If it is not already in, i think it should be part of the PRC. Of course , sometimes charts are avaialble but due to language problems i am still unable to get charts. for example i flew to St Petersburg, Russia and i was cleared for a SID. When trying to find this SID i found around 50 charts only numbered 1-50. No hint on what was inside at all. All charts were in Russian but eventually after searching for almost 30 minutes i found what i thought was the correct SID. Afterwards i found out that this was an outdated chart but how was i supposed to know this at the time? I of course [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed that the charts published on the website were valid. Anyway, needless to say i screwed up the departure due to a stuck throttle lever and ended up receiving vectors to my first waypoint anyway in the end Best Regards / Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Williams Posted November 3, 2005 at 01:05 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 01:05 PM Since when is a full set of Jep charts been a requirement to fly on vatsim? Twice now I was denied a clearance because I didnt have the SID TWR wanted. At KSEA the departure only state to fly to a radial from the sea vor. You mean to tell me the TWR guy couldnt have just said that? Is that too much for him to type? Also I am getting a bit tired of a controller(usually a student ) jumping onto a position just as I am beginning to taxi or am already at the hold point on the runway only to get instructions to go to another runway? Shouldnt he just let us go and go through the entire procedure for other a/c who show up after he signs on. Ok thats enough [Mod-You kiss your mother with that mouth?] now a suggestion. If there is a non voice rated student on tower or approach couldnt we allow the a/c to respond via voice while he typed his messages. Switching from APP to TWR is usually pretty busy setting up for the landing, and people with slow machines are hung up trying to type and prepare to land? Wouldnt it be more efficient if the a/c could reply to text commands via voice? Deal with it. #1, You should have the charts. They are easy to find: http://myairplane.com or http://airnav.com Sure, your situation should not have been a big deal and if someone actually denies you clearance because you don't have a chart, then write his supervisor, which would be his ATM or DATM. #2, controllers aren't "just jumping into a position" for you. You aren't that special! Controllers control when they can just as you fly when you can. If he really wanted to switch your runway, perhaps you didn't read the weather correctly and were taking off with a tailwind. Sure, I'd still let you go if you were at the h/s point, but just bringing up reasons. Nothing to get upset about though. As I already said. Deal with it! Maybe we can get a forum going for controllers to [self-edit, yes I do kiss my girlfriend with this mouth] and moan about pilots who can't fly SIDs/STARS and never have charts! Thank you, Lance W. Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Elchitz 810151 Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:39 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:39 PM Deal with it. Lovely response Lance, remember that you represent VATUSA now. Thomas - The controller could probably have cut you a lot more slack. When people are just learning to control on the network, they get a lot of rules, regulations, and procedures jammed in their face - it's very easy for them to be rule sticklers right off the bat, and sometimes it takes a bit of time before they realize that you don't always have to follow the rules to the letter - especially when traffic is super low. When you get into a situation like that - it's very easy for things to get out of control. I've been frustrated by this sort of thing on both sides of the scope - sometimes because someone else is being a stickler, sometimes because I am being a stickler. Cooler heads must always prevail. At the same time - you should try and get some charts. It really enhances the whole experience. No one is telling you that you must have the most recent Jepps - just get a copy of the chart in PDF - take a look at it (make sure you understand it) and then respond "yes I have the chart". Maybe we can get a forum going for controllers to [self-edit, yes I do kiss my girlfriend with this mouth] and moan about pilots who can't fly SIDs/STARS and never have charts! - that's funny but we actually already have too many of those forums. Ian Elchitz Just a guy without any fancy titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Williams Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:43 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 03:43 PM Deal with it. Lovely response Lance, remember that you represent VATUSA now. Nice quote Ian, if you quoted my entire response, the "Deal with it" part was explained. Deal with it! Thank you, Lance W. Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry Morris 920567 Posted November 3, 2005 at 04:47 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 04:47 PM ...Wouldnt it be more efficient if the a/c could reply to text commands via voice?... Unfortunately, the entire stated reason (not going to start the debate again here) that a new controller is text send/receive only is that with everything that's been thrown at them, they may be too overwhelmed to accurately hear calling aircraft. By using text only during an intitial period, its believed that the controller has more time to see and deal with a request than if its fired at them over voice. When I come on tower, I take a quick look at aircraft already in motion on the field, make contact with those aircraft to find out where they think they are going, and then usually issue them a taxi clearance to the runway they had originally planned - [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming there is no great safety risk involved. Meanwhile, I begin instructing new aircraft to go to the runway I'm bound to by weather conditions or SOP. There are times, however, in which I'll reinstruct already moving aircraft to head to the runway I need them on, to make sure they don't smack into other aircraft in the area that may be setting up to land on an opposing/crossing runway. Keep in mind, sitting on the ground, you don't have nearly as much info as I do looking at the entire airspace for the city you're in. You also may not have as much information on the airport and surrounding area in general as a controller who has been instructed in the operating procedures for that area. While I'll not maliciously re[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign your runway, I will do so if I feel you'll create a risk to other traffic or yourself (terrain, etc) when you take off. Finally, charts are good. SIDs and STARs are, for the most part, incredibly easy to use if you know how. They make everyone's life tons easier. While I don't refuse clearances for pilots that refuse SIDs, I might have to delay their departure for a short period while I coordinate with Approach or Center to make sure I can issue a direct XXX VOR clearance to them. Again, I don't maliciously delay them for any reason, I personally don't care whether they file a SID or not, but I must make sure that they can be worked into other traffic already in the area. Not so critical when its slow, but highly highly critical when things are hopping and Approach is swamped. http://www.execjetva.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Hansson Posted November 3, 2005 at 05:52 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 05:52 PM I think most everything has been covered above. You should NOT have been denied a clearence just because you didn't have the proper charts. As far as I am concerned, the word "UNABLE" should not be part of Seattle's controllers vocabulary unless it is a blatant safety issue. If you have problems at KSEA again, please let me know directly. I have already chatted with the controller in question... My email is publushed on the Seattle ARTCC website (www.seaartcc.net) which BTW has links to all the charts! Tomas Hansson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Meyer 944876 Posted November 3, 2005 at 08:42 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 08:42 PM Simple question here for those of you that keep saying get the charts. How is someone supposed to get them if say, a) they don't have a printer, b) don't have a second monitor, and c) their computer isn't quite fast enought to keep switching between FS and the chart? And don't tell me they should go to Kinko's and print them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hill 810430 Posted November 3, 2005 at 09:12 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 09:12 PM I had that very problem one day when my printer decided to run out of ink on me. I switched out before taking off and looked up the chart withe transition noted and then sketched a rough diagram for navigation aid. Just the basics -- Rwy hdg until QRS VOR DME 2.5, left turn to 270 degrees, pick up XYZ VOR outbound radial 323 for DME 23 miles, then ABC VOR 090 radial inbound to ABC, then.... Worked fine! Respectfully, Daniel Hill 810430 [Just Plain Ole' Dan] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Elchitz 810151 Posted November 3, 2005 at 10:31 PM Posted November 3, 2005 at 10:31 PM Tom - good point and completely understood. I haven't actually owned a printer for almost 2 years myself. Although I only have one monitor, I do have the advantage of owning a computer with more than enough power to alt tab between charts and FS. However - I do the exact same thing that Dan Hill mentioned - I write down on a note pad what I need to do. Ian Elchitz Just a guy without any fancy titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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