VATUSA better than before?

[Lance Williams]

I am going on record and agreeing with Lance. Yes, you heard it. I'm agreeing with Lance.

 

Oh boy, I must have done something wrong!

[Ross Carlson]

A year ago I would have said it was impossible for VATUSA to get any worse, but defying all odds, it somehow has.

 

NOTE: Many respondents seem to be misinterpreting the question. We are discussing the divisional "leadership" and the way that the division is run. I'm glad you love controlling and/or flying on the network -- I do too -- but that's not really the point. Unless you are on an ARTCC's staff, or have been in the past, you won't have any direct dealings with VATUSA and thus won't really be able to answer the question as posed. I don't agree that a thread is "useless" just because only a limited number of people would be able to offer an opinion, and there are plenty of "what's your favourite aircraft/airport/etc." threads elsewhere to which all the noobs can post.

 

For the record, my reply was just a joke, and was mainly just reacting to the fact that Josh's post was extremely vague (example, I didn't even know it was about VATUSA staff issues, as opposed to say, staffing levels or the general quality of controllers) and he didn't post his own opinion as a reference point to get the thread started.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Glad some individuals are using this thread as it was meant. Thank you Ian, Marc, Chris, Brad, and Mr. McClelland. . .

 

For Justin of ZTL. . .

 

Sure this thread is worthless, or stupid as you put it, but this thread may bring to light a number of issues that concern me. For which, due to the reasons Marc has stated earlier, I am not willing to just throw blindly out into the public of VATUSA.

 

It is also now available that Marc and Ian have brought up some excellent points, which is exactly what I wanted.

 

I have also been involved in staff positions with VATUSA as an instructor in my past, and am presently involved with the PRC team in writing a number of weather related PRC itrms. I have in the past given suggestions, and yes, criticisms to other ARTCCs on how to improve their training programs, for which many have ignored solely because I was a member of ZLA.

 

This isnt a ZLA thing, but I'll make something about ZLA here in a bit, and I'm sorry for those who seeked it out to try to make it about ZLA. Shame on you for doing such, and even suggesting that that is what this is about.

 

I'm not one to draging dirty laundry through a VATUSA forum.

 

If you guys want to keep trying to water down the realism of this region, you will never see CTR manning increase except at the select few facilities that have strong training programs. I wish Jim the best of luck at VATUSA Training Director, he has had the position before, but that was under a different Director, so I am only left guessing what sort of improvements can come under the new leadership. I'm not p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing judgement, but I'm also not looking in the past and seeing what was done then under different people before making an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption (that means, don't bite my head off because you disagree with me. . .I'm giving them time to show me what they can do to turn the region around).

 

But yes Ross, this thread is sure, meant to discuss VATUSA staffers, as well as the overall status of the division. I want answers, opinions, I want it all.

 

Mr. McClelland,

 

I also want to commend you on your post. I have no clue who you are, where you came from, or what your plans are. Since you wanted to make it about ZLA, or make this whole topic a ZLA issue, I aks the following from you. I have to ask you as a veteran of ZLA, VATUSA, VATSIM, and SATCO. . .do not allow VATUSA to turn their backs on ZLA. We have worked extremely hard, present staff, and those before the present leadership, bringing OUR training program to what it is today. I ask you as Western region director, or air traffic manager, or whatever they are calling the position these days, to not allow it to be watered down just for the sole purpose of the other ARTCCs in VATUSA. That is fair correct?

 

Also, I have no view that VATUSA is evil. Quite the opposite. I just want to make sure VATUSA does not become evil from the eyes of some of our very best controllers within the network, some of the very veterans that we call upon to train the newest breed of controllers. In regards to me giving the new guys a chance. . .read above, you'll see that I am certainly willing to. But what I do not understand, and wouldn't mind some answers about, is why there was such an influx of chief resignations or removals, or whatever happened.

 

Were the majority of Chief positions becoming open because past chiefs wanted out, or were they being told to leave for new leadership to be placed into position? That to me is the only question I want answered, honestly.

 

One thing I want from VATUSA, is not for this region to become like the Zone. Is that too much to ask? We can keep making it as easy as you guys wish, we really can. But one thing is certain, why make it easy now, when the PRC is working on a large library of topics, as well as working on a pilot rating and testing system? I just want the word from someone, that the leadership is not going to water down everything. Throwing the .65 out the door, making this region unrealistic is my nightmare, let's just s[Mod - lovely stuff] all the training that was once available solely for the wishs of a couple people from the lower staffed, weaker trained facilities. Jim knows, or I hope he knows, that I have been willing to transfer out of my comfy surroundings of ZLA to go elsewhere and help in training, but, only if asked.

 

We are finally getting around to tightening up our pilot community, and now in my eyes it appears that we may be loosening up our controller community in regards to training. I just hope I am incorrect.

 

Thanks guys for taking this in a mature fashion, let's keep it that way.

[Ross Carlson]

Josh, since this has been aired in public, I feel justified in asking this question. Have members of the VATUSA staff actually suggested decreasing the realism of ZLA's training? (Referring to where you alluded to "throwing the .65 out the door".)

[Lance Williams]

We are finally getting around to tightening up our pilot community, and now in my eyes it appears that we may be loosening up our controller community in regards to training. I just hope I am incorrect.

 

I'd say you are VERY incorrect.

[Tom Meyer 944876]

now in my eyes it appears that we may be loosening up our controller community in regards to training..

Why do you see it like this?

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Josh, since this has been aired in public, I feel justified in asking this question. Have members of the VATUSA staff actually suggested decreasing the realism of ZLA's training? (Referring to where you alluded to "throwing the .65 out the door".)

 

I wont state any names, but when I have mentioned inconsistencies in performance online with the .65 to leadership at certain facilities they cite that we have to make exceptions to the rules so that we can maintain retention. Hence my thread of many moons ago asking pilots of VATUSA to send feedback to the facilities that have feedback forms, or to simply provide a simple e-mail to the leadership so that they know I'm not the only one who is paying attention.

 

I alluded to throwing out the .65 in respect to VATUSA's regional training standards not ZLAs. I hope VATUSA's standards do not change, and I have full faith in Jim that this will not happen. But rather the opposite, an increase in training standards to provide for a more realistic environment to compete with VATEUR, VATUK, and to force leadership to get out from under the "we have to make it easier, so let's cut corners here" mentallity.

 

Tom, read above. Answers your question I think. You gentlemen have to remember these are my opinions, and I do have a habit of calling them as I see them. I certainly do not expect all of you to agree with me. In my statement concerning loosening up our controller community, the key word was may. I'm not going to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] judgement like I have already said, but unfortunately it looks like we could be positioning ourselves, in a leadership fashion, to loosen up the training at certain facilities so as to make it easier for individuals to get promoted. Disagree with me if you wish, my feelings will not be hurt.

Edited November 4, 2005 at 10:42 PM by Guest

[Tom Meyer 944876]

Josh, thanks for your reply. I haven't been with VATSIM long enough to have any clue about the management stuff so I really can't comment. I was just curious why you were seeing it that way. Seeing as we switched directors and most management it seems, right as I joined, I have no clue about anything the previous management did.

[Ross Carlson]

but unfortunately it looks like we could be positioning ourselves, in a leadership fashion, to loosen up the training at certain facilities so as to make it easier for individuals to get promoted. Disagree with me if you wish, my feelings will not be hurt.

 

I don't agree, only because I haven't heard of any such intentions, but that may very well be because I'm not in a position to hear about them until they become policy.

 

Personally, I think the way it works now is just fine. A handful of ARTCCs are known for their training programs, and certain types of controllers and certain types of pilots will flock there. Other ARTCCs are more relaxed, and they create a home for controllers that may not want to go the full distance as required by the "more realistic" ARTCCs. I see no reason to change this. As a pilot, I'd love it if every ARTCC trained as hard as ZLA ... except for the fact that there may not be enough controllers willing to train that hard to cover the US. So my choices of where to fly (I only fly where there is ATC) could be reduced, and that's a bad thing. The flip side is probably also true ... if ARTCCs lowered their standards across the board, perhaps I'd see a lot more ATC coverage, but the quality would suffer. Again, I think what we have now is workout out well.

[Chris Renne 818571]

That's a good point Ross. It's sort of a balancing act between what JH suggests (having excellent training, excellent controllers, and excllent pilots) and sacrificing some because this is a hobby and not everybody wants to devote hours. Perhaps that degree of "expectations" is important. As friendly as most of the guys at ZLA can be, if we're working center on a busy Friday/Saturday night, we might be less inclined to tolerate certain "newbie" folks not knowing how to fly a chain visual as some more relaxed environments. It's a tradeoff. I do hope and trust that Jim will maintain a certain bar for everybody just to ensure that we maintain a certain level of realism across VATUSA.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

It is a difficult trade off. . . but I know that we can reach it again like we have in the past, hopefully.

[Jim Johnson 814050]

I am currently working on several things for Training. We haven't publically announced our plans yet, simply because not all of the details are in place yet. We have been talking among the senior VATUSA Staff. We want to make sure our plans are solid and complete before we release anything prematurely. I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure all of you that VATUSA will not be watering down training standards. The 7110.65 is the end-all for controlling in the USA and we will certainly not be throwing it out the window. You can look forward to a press release from VATUSA regarding Training in the coming weeks, but in the meantime be re[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured that we are not lowering the bar in any way, shape, or form.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Great to know Jim. I hope you understand that nothing I have said in here is knocking you, or your staff at the training department.

[Lance Williams]

Great to know Jim. I hope you understand that nothing I have said in here is knocking you, or your staff at the training department.

 

Really, so posts like this from you aren't knocking him? He's with VATUSA. Here's a quote from you Josh:

 

A year ago I would have said it was impossible for VATUSA to get any worse, but defying all odds, it somehow has.

 

You seem to be knocking VATUSA pretty hard there.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Great to know Jim. I hope you understand that nothing I have said in here is knocking you, or your staff at the training department.

 

Really, so posts like this from you aren't knocking him? He's with VATUSA. Here's a quote from you Josh:

 

A year ago I would have said it was impossible for VATUSA to get any worse, but defying all odds, it somehow has.

 

You seem to be knocking VATUSA pretty hard there.

 

Yes, the latter of the two was a rather general and broad statement. Are those illegal now in the new surroundings we find ourselves?

 

If you read my statement more closely, it was directed to Jim and his training staff, my support is not for all of VATUSA right now, sorry Lance.

 

What more do you want me to say Lance? I'm not going to get into a little tussle with you so, keep fishing for it someplace else. I hope you understand.

[Lance Williams]

No fisting here Josh. Just checking since you seem to switch teams more often than Jerry Rice!

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

No fisting here Josh. Just checking since you seem to switch teams more often than Jerry Rice!

 

Yup, I suppose you are right. Although I'm not even sure which teams I have been switching from.

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

Since hockey is finally back..

 

Ok both of you - hit the box.

 

#100, Continental - 2 minutes for interference

326 on the American side - 2 minute instigator penalty

 

Anymore out of you guys and you'll be looking at a misconduct and watching the rest from the dressing room.

 

[Lance Williams]

Since hockey is finally back..

 

Ok both of you - hit the box.

 

#100, Continental - 2 minutes for interference

326 on the American side - 2 minute instigator penalty

 

Anymore out of you guys and you'll be looking at a misconduct and watching the rest from the dressing room.

 

 

LOL, COA611 now!

[Chris Renne 818571]

I thought hockey was a little more testosterone-heavy than to have a "dressing room", IE

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Since hockey is finally back..

 

Ok both of you - hit the box.

 

#100, Continental - 2 minutes for interference

326 on the American side - 2 minute instigator penalty

 

Anymore out of you guys and you'll be looking at a misconduct and watching the rest from the dressing room.

 

 

lol, ah Ian. . .It'll be 726 on the UPS side now

[Jeff Turner]

Hi guy's,

 

I wanted to provide a short reply to this thread...

 

I'm not sure why this thread is here... Is it better than last year? I'm sure it's just a simple quest for information. And let me see if I can provide you some.

 

Since 90% of the VATUSA senior staff has been in place less than a month, I'm guessing that you Josh, are expecting miracles and new stuff to happen instantaneously, It won't... "It takes longer to build then to destroy" a friend of mine told me once. And that is VERY true in this case.

 

I wouldn't expect any MAJOR changes for the next few months while we completely re-build the VATUSA website and database and completely overhaul the VATUSA training program to something completely new and improved. You can expect a press release on this stuff in the next few weeks. There are a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on and when the time is right, and I have all the information together, I will share it with you.

 

As far as your concerns Ian, when you were hired as the Western Region Coordinator years ago and I was the Denver Chief, did you provide us with what your intensions were for the region? I don't recall that... What I will tell you that in the next few weeks, as soon as I have a few items ironed out, I will provide a statement to the VATUSA membership about where we were, where we are and where we are going. That was my intension the entire time and I should have provided that to you. So, with that, I apologize. My intent is to increase the communication with the staff and controllers and pilots.

 

Additionally, for you Nick - Do you really want to air your dirty laundry here in a public forum? Your statements about the "good ole boy club" are simply dead wrong. What was that statement you made to me on ASRC? "Why is everyone out to get meâ€

[Marc Sykes 852946]

I wonder if you really belong in your position as ATM. We don't need that kind of negativity here.

 

Just about says it all, doesn't it folks? Unless you're willing to jump on the bandwagon and be a cheerleader, get out. No room for criticism in the "new" VATUSA. I had known already that that was the case, but thanks for confirming it publicly.

 

To Rich Jenkins: wondering why center time is down and the senior guys are not signing on anymore? Well, if the choice comes down to either being a sycophant, or getting out (either voluntarily or by being removed as is implied here), many of us will choose to get out.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Jeff,

 

I am not expecting miracles within a month. But it became rather obvious that, recently, that any constructive critisism of the leadership was not welcomed. It was also known, and is now more obvious, that if you have anything bad to say about the leadership, or any sort of suggestions that go against the views of the leadership, that you will either be removed or suggested to resign because you're not playing along with the agenda or plan that is in place.

 

As far as where Marc stands, that is between him and VATUSA. . . unfortunately. But one thing can be sure, all of ZLA is behind him (as far as I know).

 

A lot of senior controllers have already given up because it is not the same as it was years ago. Why should someone continue to be involved in a community that is not welcoming their suggestions to improve the society? In my opinion it looks like somebody is turning their back on the tried and trusted suggestions of a group of people, because of where they are based. Just real unfortunate in my eyes and it needs to change.

 

I hope these issues are resolved soon. Because I certainly do not want a Director that is not willing to listen someone else's opinion or take someones inputs on a situation because that individual is not following the set path established by HQ staff.

[Nicholas Fredrich 827138]

Just about says it all, doesn't it folks? Unless you're willing to jump on the bandwagon and be a cheerleader, get out. No room for criticism in the "new" VATUSA. I had known already that that was the case, but thanks for confirming it publicly.

 

Agreed! If you aren't on that wagon, you are blacklisted for life.