VATUSA better than before?

[Jeff Thomas]

I remember way back under Ben how he tried to implement a more "structured" VATUSA, and the training program was initiated and Mr. Oakley tried to get the Chiefs to buy in. They didn't. They did a lot of complaining though about how "bad" things were without providing any real constructive feedback.

 

So, we move into Dane's administration, and he was more laid back and let the Chief's do their thing. Some did, some didn't. They did a lot complaining though about how "bad" things were without providing any real constructive feedback.

 

I heard Lance comment about not receiving any feedback when he sent out a request to the Chiefs about what they really wanted on the website.......nada.... or as someone else said a while ago... crickets....(I love that line by the way... my son used it the other day and floored me

 

These are the two cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic ways of leading...hands-on and hands-off.

 

So far, the only REAL criticism I have heard for the last 4 years is that some Chiefs just don't like being "under" a VATUSA in the first place. It almost seems to me that it wouldn't matter if Humpty Dumpty or Cinderella were running VATUSA, some Chiefs would have a problem with that authority over them.

 

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm pretty sick of this public bashing of the VATUSA staff without any real merit. If you guys have issues, take care of them in a staff meeting.

 

Anyway, I hope an admin locks this silly thread and removes it because it provides absolutely nothing to the general membership except a sour taste.

 

 

Jeff

[Marc Sykes 852946]

I heard Lance comment about not receiving any feedback when he sent out a request to the Chiefs about what they really wanted on the website.......nada.... or as someone else said a while ago... crickets...

 

Some of us never saw that because we were removed from the chiefs' list. As for those that did, I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that they didn't feel like typing out all of the suggestions they had been making over the past two years yet again. I wouldn't have either. Anyone who wants to know what the chiefs would like to see on the website needs only to do a search of the old VATUSA list, which will yield dozens of pages of suggestions. There's absolutely no need to ask the same question again.

 

These are the two cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic ways of leading...hands-on and hands-off.

 

Or we could look for a middle ground, perhaps. Just because I didn't like the Homer Simpson style of management we used to have doesn't mean I wanted Josef Stalin to be the next guy up to the plate.

 

Anyway, I hope an admin locks this silly thread and removes it because it provides absolutely nothing to the general membership except a sour taste.

 

I disagree; I think the general membership would be interested to know that their chiefs are being threatened with suspension/removal just for voicing a contrary opinion. I find that to be a serious concern and I don't think I'm the only one. Ultimately VATUSA staff is supposed to be working for the members, not the other way around, so I think it's necessary to maintain transparency in its affairs. If the staff members don't want to provide this transparency on their own, they have to expect threads like these to keep popping up.

[Jeff Thomas]

I disagree; I think the general membership would be interested to know that their chiefs are being threatened with suspension/removal just for voicing a contrary opinion. I find that to be a serious concern and I don't think I'm the only one. Ultimately VATUSA staff is supposed to be working for the members, not the other way around, so I think it's necessary to maintain transparency in its affairs. If the staff members don't want to provide this transparency on their own, they have to expect threads like these to keep popping up.

 

Well put. I see your point. I remember when SATCO died, those of us who were not in the know were completely lost and in the dark as to why the network just vanished....

 

Jeff

[Todd Cox 814690]

To all,

 

If you are looking for a place to point fingers, then point them my way. I am the one that has instigated the changes that are taking place, I am the one that has appointed the new VATUSA, and I am the one pushing for change. The reason for this is simple. Some within this post have asked for the goals. My goals for VATUSA and VATCAN are very simple:

 

"To create an environment which is fun and, at the same time, educational and a realistic simulation of procedures followed by pilots and air traffic controllers everyday around the world."

 

Sound familiar? It should as it is the very first paragraph of the Code of Conduct. To accomplish this goal we have to establish four basic things:

 

1. Communication

2. Teamwork

3. Fairness

4. Empowering.

 

These four key elements have been almost non-existant in the past. I am very happy to say that that is changing. With the recent changes, there have been alot of positives that have taken place within VATUSA. I agree with Ian's post, that there should be a communication regarding the overall goals and plans. I know that this is forthcoming as the VATUSA staff is attempting to fix many issues, like the website issue.

 

Currently within this forum post, I have read that there are issues and that seniors are leaving. I am interested in seeing the proof that seniors are leaving. I would like to know if their departures are based on not agreeing with the changes taking place, or if they tired of the same, childish, bantering that continues to take place when you have people that are opposed to change.

 

Inconsistencies with the 7110.65. I would like an example of proof of this. Is the inconsistency regarding understanding the application of a Handbook procedures, or is it based on "techniques" that are taught at various facilities in support of 7110.65 procedures?

 

I also think that it is very interesting that whenever there is a discussion, how quickly we go to the the BOG in order to elicit a response from them. I ask all of you who have access to the Chiefs emails and training email groups, haven't you noticed that senior staff has not intervened since the leadership changes have taken place? This is because part of the change is to allow Staffs and Chiefs to do their jobs, to agree or disagree, without having to worry about anyone coming from on high and dictating.

 

Is it perfect? No. Are we attempting to get rid of the negative stigmatism that has permeated throughout VATUSA in the past? Absolutely. In order to do this, we have to work as a team. I have also read in this post that you are not allowed to offer opinion. I see everyday in the Chiefs and Training groups that there are differences of opinion. No one is blacklisted, no one is stifled. The comments that are positive and negative are based on looking out for all, and not just one entity. The comments are also not laced with hints of sarchasim, or veiled attempts to undermine the hard work that currently taking place.

 

Now, I am very positive that the responses I will receive with my post today will be spun in all sorts of directions. So I will finalize my post with this statement that explains my view:

 

I most strongly support VATUSA and the Chiefs within VATUSA who are working together in accomplishing division goals that will be beneficial for all members within VATSIM. I am the one that is pushing for things to take place at lower levels that are fair and equitable for all. Like I said at the beginning of this post, if you want to point the arrows towards a target, I have the bullseye on. So, if you have a issue with these things, then you are more than welcome to email me, or even call me. But don't use a public forum such as this to undermine the hard work that is being done, especially if you do not even have the guts to post your same concerns within the Chiefs Email group, or to email me directly, or to bring ideas and comments up through your Chiefs so they can let the staffs know what the member's concerns are.

 

I am very aware of the rights to say what you feel and I agree with that. But, if you cannot handle the response, especially when you have made a post to specifically entice a response, then don't attempt to waste the time of other people within this thread with useless bantering and a supposed godlike inference that others within this group are stupid. There are some very well educated and common-sense folks who "get it". If you want to be part of the solution, then get off the soapbox, and let's do some things that will be good for everyone.

 

One last point. Isn't it funny that after the initial post of this thread, that many of the responses have been positive? Imagine the number of responses to this thread three months ago. I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that it would have escalted to the point to where the thread would have been locked, like some threads were in the past. Seems like this, in itself, shows that there are positive changes taking place, and that it is understood that there still is a long way to go. But we can get there, if put aside the personal attacks, the issues from the past, and move forward as one group.

 

Thank you all for your time. If you would like to respond to me personally, or ask my opinion, I am always available and have nothing to hide. This will be my only response to this thread as I won't waste the time of others in an attempt to play some kind of intellectual tennis match. I get enough of that just watching the news networks. And if I have mispelled any words, I apologize, as I am only human.

 

Regards,

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

As far as your concerns Ian, when you were hired as the Western Region Coordinator years ago and I was the Denver Chief, did you provide us with what your intensions were for the region? I don't recall that...

 

Yes in fact I did when I first stepped up to the plate. I also provided the Chiefs in the region with regular updates as plans became more solid or changed due to feedback received from them.

 

You don't recall because you were not the Chief, you held some other VATUSA position at the time (before you stepped down suddenly as I recall) - Dick Snaer was the Chief at Denver and Scott Crafton was his CI.

 

Anyhow, I appreciate the response, no one expects the world to change in a day - we're looking forward to hearing what the plans are.

[Josh Hjemvick 811983]

Good to know your plan Todd, and I respect it. No worries there.

 

But I am just wondering who it is you feel is on a soapbox, as I feel anyone who has posted anything negative (or jsut comments on this matter) is not on a soapbox but rather just voicing their opinion.

 

And also Todd, let us not get involved in the technique vs. procedure debate when it comes to the .65, we can deal with that in the future if needed. I will note that the facility that I provided feedback on regarding the issue has yet to show the same fault twice (in my experience). I fly to educate and to have a good time, I control to have a good time, if someone doesn't like it. . . tell me to leave your airspace then.

Edited November 6, 2005 at 07:43 PM by Guest

[Ross Carlson]

Thank you Todd, for providing a voice of reason. I truly hope that what you say about VATUSA senior staff listening to opinions and not shutting out those that disagree, is true. And I hope that the situation hinted at in this thread doesn't escalate any further. It reminds me of two warships parked side-by-side on the ocean, exchanging volleys of cannon fire. I'd really hate to see it come to a head, with ZLA staff jumping ship, since that would of course be a detriment to VATSIM.

[Michael Pedde 918614]

Why is everyone making this so damn difficult. Here's my opinion. Is the system working?? If not what needs to be improved?? Are those improvements implemented in a timely fashion?? Now all of this can not be done unless there is a mission statement. Is there a mission statement for the US?? What is the ultimate goal of VATUSA??

[Tom Meyer 944876]

Michael, will all due respect, I think you kind of missed the point.

[Lance Williams]

I wonder if you really belong in your position as ATM. We don't need that kind of negativity here.

 

Just about says it all, doesn't it folks? Unless you're willing to jump on the bandwagon and be a cheerleader, get out. No room for criticism in the "new" VATUSA. I had known already that that was the case, but thanks for confirming it publicly.

 

To Rich Jenkins: wondering why center time is down and the senior guys are not signing on anymore? Well, if the choice comes down to either being a sycophant, or getting out (either voluntarily or by being removed as is implied here), many of us will choose to get out.

 

Marc there's constructive criticism and there's destructive criticism/sarcasm. You are simply flaming right now in this thread and it's becoming tiring. I can't believe you are the ZLA ATM quite frankly with your behavior here. I don't know about anyone else, but your childish rants here are a big *Yawn* now.

[Lance Williams]

Some of us never saw that because we were removed from the chiefs' list. As for those that did, I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that they didn't feel like typing out all of the suggestions they had been making over the past two years yet again. I wouldn't have either. Anyone who wants to know what the chiefs would like to see on the website needs only to do a search of the old VATUSA list, which will yield dozens of pages of suggestions. There's absolutely no need to ask the same question again.

 

I've got more important things to work on then going back and searching for 2+ year-old suggestions that probably don't have much merrit today. Also, I hear you removed yourself from the list Marc, so who is to blame there?

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

...there's constructive criticism and there's destructive criticism/sarcasm. I can't believe you are the ZLA ATM quite frankly with your behavior here. I don't know about anyone else, but your childish rants here are a big *Yawn* now.

 

Wow, for a second I thought you were talking about yourself.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I've got more important things to work on then going back and searching for 2+ year-old suggestions that probably don't have much merrit today. Also, I hear you removed yourself from the list Marc, so who is to blame there?

 

And you also have more important things to do than to sit around and post comments like this, when you have plans to work on to improve the status of VATUSA. Pot calling Kettle, here.

 

You (plural) do realise that all of this bickering is making us look like total jerks to the rest of VATSIM, and pilots might see this as a reason to turn to IVAO, no? Let's get back on track here. You had it spot on in your first post, Lance. If anyone has suggestions, send them in. IMHO, that was the best, and most positive post I've seen you post here, and one of the best responses in this thread. Since that, this has all gone downhill. We don't need to rehash everything like bitter old couples in a 20-year divorce. Whatever has happened has happened. Let's break it down, learn from it, try not to make the same mistakes again, and move forward.

 

Groove with me, people.

 

BL.

[Lance Williams]

And you also have more important things to do than to sit around and post comments like this, when you have plans to work on to improve the status of VATUSA. Pot calling Kettle, here.

 

I can and will respond to people directly talking to me Brad. But thanks for your concern. I do agree, some of these posts shed negative light on us as a whole, but not as much as they do on the person.

 

I'd love to see Marc at the meeting on Sunday, although I'm sure he will not show.

[Keith Smith]

I've got more important things to work on then going back and searching for 2+ year-old suggestions that probably don't have much merrit today. Also, I hear you removed yourself from the list Marc, so who is to blame there?

 

Lance, when I came on as the event coordinator for ZLA, I have to admit, the thought of trolling through 2 years worth of postings regarding events was a little daunting, but it turned out to be very worthwhile, and helped me hit the ground running.

 

I'll agree, there's some element of truth that it would be reasonable that after a major changing of the guard (such as the one going on with VATUSA), some of the issues are going to have to be rehashed again. So, the truth, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Also, I think it's a good idea to not over-simplify Marc's disappearance from the list. I wasn't there, but it would probably be worthwhile asking WHY an ATM would remove himself from such a list, rather than simply pointing out the fact that he 'voluntarily' left.

 

Lastly, as someone who's working his a&& off on CTR as much as possible to provide service for pilots, it's incredibly disheartening to see all of this going on. It's my sincere hope that EVERYONE might accept the fact that bad things have happened in the past, but that if there's any real hope of this organization moving forward, people need to shake that off and work together. It sounds so cheesy and simple, but really, the alternatives are all pretty ugly.

 

Marc is an outstanding leader, is a smart guy (especially for a Canadian) and is very well spoken. I've also found him to be fair and flexible in my dealiings with him, and watching his interactions with other members of the ZLA staff on all sorts of policy issues. He has given hundreds of hours of instruction to students and clearly cares about the people on this network. I have a hard time believing that from the outset, his suggestions were presented in anything under than a productive manner. I also imagine that over time, if he felt such suggestions were falling on deaf ears, the tone of the suggestions would change. That would be human nature.

 

VATUSA folks, I hope that suggestions/crtiicisms from ATMs are met with an open mind GOING FORWARD, regardless of their origin. I would hope that each suggestion would be taken on its merits, rather than discounted because of its source. I'm not speaking to any single incident, since I wasn't present for any of this...but rather as a general policy. Personal attacks at such high levels are poison, and ultimately, the effects trickle down and hurt a number of ppl.

 

Marc, I implore you to reconsider the direction you're heading and give the new guard a chance to get things right. I'm the first to admit that I don't know half of what's gone on, but I still believe that if a concerted effort is made by both sides to move forward and have a civil discussion, things should get sorted out. This would entail you dropping a lot of tension and hostility from the past, which is a big ask, I know. The alternative would be for you to leave, which would be a crushing blow to many people, myself included. I really hope you'll get back on the list and participate in the important dicsussions that require your attention, and that your contributions will be given a more welcomed reception.

 

In conclusion, your honor, I hope I'm not out of place with these suggestions. I'm not part of the VATUSA org structure, or an ATM. That said, I've put everything I've got into the this organization in the last 2 years. I just thought I'd try to point out the obvious....you guys need to try to get along, moving on from the past. While that takes tremendous discipline from both sides, there really isn't a better alternative.

[Harv Stein]

Marc is an outstanding leader, is a smart guy (especially for a Canadian) What kind of comment is that Keith? Harv.

[Keith Smith]

It's what we in the biz call a "joke"

[Lance Williams]

Keith was joking, LOL! Anway, good points Keith. I'll take them with me as I go on.

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

Harv, Keith was joking.

 

Keith - you hit the bullseye with:

 

...you guys need to try to get along, moving on from the past. While that takes tremendous discipline from both sides, there really isn't a better alternative.

 

You are 100% correct.

[Tom Meyer 944876]

Great post Keith.

[Terrell Jones 919286]

I wonder if you really belong in your position as ATM. We don't need that kind of negativity here.

 

Just about says it all, doesn't it folks? Unless you're willing to jump on the bandwagon and be a cheerleader, get out. No room for criticism in the "new" VATUSA. I had known already that that was the case, but thanks for confirming it publicly.

 

To Rich Jenkins: wondering why center time is down and the senior guys are not signing on anymore? Well, if the choice comes down to either being a sycophant, or getting out (either voluntarily or by being removed as is implied here), many of us will choose to get out.

 

Marc there's constructive criticism and there's destructive criticism/sarcasm. You are simply flaming right now in this thread and it's becoming tiring. I can't believe you are the ZLA ATM quite frankly with your behavior here. I don't know about anyone else, but your childish rants here are a big *Yawn* now.

 

hey i'm not one you senior members at vatusa lol but i'v been here for a year .......i would have to agree with Marc i don't think just because he is a ATM that he should not voice his opinion ...and he shoouldn't have to lie to make things seem like they are good .actually what he said was funny ( Unless you're willing to jump on the bandwagon and be a cheerleader ) but also true.......i think the vatusa staff (for those of you who are not) shouldn't take this as a bad thing...it constructive critisicism ...and should be taken in a good way...look at as ways they can improved vatusa...and if i 'm not mistaken i don't think the question was pointed directly to Jeff since he just got the position but to how Vatusa is coming along altogether since the past few years...btw i 'm not mad at ZLA for having alot of events.....there are many days were there aren't any events going on in Vatusa...well thats all i have to say like i said i can't say anything on the original question cause i have only been here for a year cya later

[Michael Kaplan 896249]

Lastly, as someone who's working his a&& off on CTR as much as possible to provide service for pilots, it's incredibly disheartening to see all of this going on. It's my sincere hope that EVERYONE might accept the fact that bad things have happened in the past, but that if there's any real hope of this organization moving forward, people need to shake that off and work together. It sounds so cheesy and simple, but really, the alternatives are all pretty ugly.

 

Never have truer words been spoken.

[Mark Brummett]

I typically shy away from threads like this, but I would like to interject something in all this:

 

First off, I, like many of you all, have been with this hobby in whichever form since late 1997, when it was truly fledgling. I remember being encouraged by Randy Whistler to step up to the plate and be the chief at ZKC, back when that ARTCC had exactly one active member..me.

 

I enjoyed working with people the likes of George "Pook" Barney, Jim Davis, et al.

 

This hobby can be great, but also frustrating. The problem, in my opinion, is that to air out our 'differences' we have to do it either just via voice/text or through emails/private messages.

 

I got the chance this past August to meet both primaries in this division. Jeff Turner and Todd Cox, in my observation, truly care for this division of VATSIM. More so than I think alot of you know. We spent quite a bit of time talking about how things could be made better, what we could do to help and the like. The first day of the convention alone, I believe, was one of the most productive, in terms of airing out what were perceived problems, within EVERYONE in attendance.

 

People, Rome wasn't built in a day. I can't speak to prior management, but I know that this pair will do what's right by the division, and by VATSIM. Be patient. You seem to think that the status quo remains. This is a HUGE division with a lot of things still needing to be done to get it pointed in the right direction. I believe it's happening.

 

If you don't believe that it is, then step up to the plate and offer to help. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And if you haven't offered to help, then don't whine and complain about it.

[Adam Hulse]

Nicely put Mark!

[Mark Plumley 814838]

This hobby can be great, but also frustrating. The problem, in my opinion, is that to air out our 'differences' we have to do it either just via voice/text or through emails/private messages.

 

Great idea, one of the best posts I have seen Mark...Bravo!