do you remember AAL 191 heavy?

[Vojislav Markovic 943817]

well a year ago or so i finally got the complete docomeentation about american airlines flight 191 that crashed in chicago in 1979 and killed 271 people on board.

i have gone through the same procedure as the real dc 10-30 did on that day. the taxi, the lie up , the clearance approved, the roll, the take off, as i use auto cad al ot i simulated the engine fall off exactly as it has occured that day while starting the plane. climbing and knowing you´re gonna loose the game for your life if horrible.

now as i simulated this horror trip i can´imagine how captain walter lux have felt.

you may ask why i post this, the answer is simple.

BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND!

 

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

now as i simulated this horror trip i can´imagine how captain walter lux have felt.

 

Ermm...somehow I think flight sim doesn't cut it

[Vojislav Markovic 943817]

bartollota,

 

somehow i think you don´t check nothing

[Daniel Hill 810430]

I tend to agree with Nicholas. Re-enacting a disaster using a flight sim may be beneficial from a training standpoint, but to say that it gives you any degree understanding of what the crew or p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers felt during the real-world experience is highly speculative.

[Andre Koch 852831]

Why would you wanna feel the sheer terror those people must have gone through during the last seconds of their life anyway? Do you really wanna feel the agony? Let me tell ya something... back when I was a firefighter, there were three instances in which I was scared out of my mind, I had the fear of death. The third time (in combination with a bad accident on scene which f***ed up my right leg pretty good) was actually what made me quit. I just simply had enough.

 

It may sound all cool and adventurous from your comfy chair at home, but when you really are in a situation where you look death into its ugly face, you will understand what it is all about and you will wish that you´ll never have to go through something like that again.

[George Marinakis]

I normally don't get involved in these types of discussions but this one caught my attention. Vojislav, I'm not going to ask you why you need to understand what the Captain felt or went through because that is a completely personal matter. I'm certain that you can learn from such horrifying things. That's why the NTSB and other aviation and safety authorites spend millions of dollars investigating the circomestances of accidents and trying to determine their causes. However, that's their job to do that. Your need to understand is your own.

 

Since you are a newer member, I will tell you this: our community does not engage in recreating accidents or writing forum threads about them. I don't think any responsible flight sim organization would encourage its members to do that. I know you probably did this offline (at least I certainly hope so because we don't allow such things to be done on our network), so I think it's best if you keep your discussions about it offline as well. This sort of thing is not what VATSIM is about.

[Jeff Clark]

I'll add that as a teenager living in Chicago, I actually saw the plane go down, and had two school mates on the plane. I'm still not comfortable thinking about it.

 

Jeff Clark

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Re-enacting a disaster using a flight sim may be beneficial from a training standpoint, but to say that it gives you any degree understanding of what the crew or p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers felt during the real-world experience is highly speculative.

 

My point exactly. Unless you were there, don't try to say, or try to "feel" the same way as those involved.

And by the way Vojislav, its "Nick" or "Nicholas" -- not "Bartollota"

[Norm Hare 907837]

I think a LOCK is in order.

[Fred Clausen]

I think a LOCK is in order.

 

Seconded.

[Vojislav Markovic 943817]

ok,

 

why is it so difficult to understand other people point of view.

i think it is not the pilots internal matter what he felt during that horror.

nick or nicholas that was your point, bartollota was not correct.

i think we should talk and take also time to study such horrible accidents, becaurse i think that will give us different angles of view instead

of doing like nothing happens.

closing the eyes and hopeing that nothing will happen next time is i think the false way.

by the way i lost a good friend in the twa 800 crash and know how people who lose relatives react and handle such situations.

 

cheers,

 

Voki

[Joe Mifsud 928114]

I'll add that as a teenager living in Chicago, I actually saw the plane go down, and had two school mates on the plane. I'm still not comfortable thinking about it.

 

Jeff Clark

 

I'm sorry to hear that. That's horrible.

[Paul Byrne]

Vojislav,

 

The point that some of the guys are making, is that with MSFS, you're not going to be able to recreate that scenario in any way, shape or form with any accuracy. This is simply because of the limitations of MSFS. So, there is no point in doing it for any educational purpose and to be quite honest seems to only serve some sort of morbid curiosity that really is in bad taste.

 

why is it so difficult to understand other people point of view.

 

This statement can be very easily tagged to you aswell. Why are you finding it so difficult to understand that people feel uncomfortable about discussing incidents like this, especially the way you are recreating them?

 

I am scared of flying. Yes, you heard it, I'm scared of flying! This is the reason I got involved with FS. My job entails a lot of flying and I had to understand what was going on, so I could try and control my fear. This led me to VATSIM and the rest is history. I personally found your intial post in bad taste as it is not what VATSIM is about. VATSIM is all about education, but you're not going to educate yourself on incidents and accidents by doing what you're doing. You're going to educate yourself by reading the reports and findings of the experts who investigate them.

 

With all due respect, please stop discussing it on this forum.

 

Regards,

Paul.

[Tom Meyer 944876]

why is it so difficult to understand other people point of view.

Pot.Kettle.Black

[Richard Walsh]

I wonder how you could duplicate it? You know the thrust setting of the engine when it came off? Did it hang before it fell? Did you have the winds? the exact fuel, p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger and Cargo wieght and balance? Did you have trouble holding on to your yoke while the A/C turned upside down violently? Were you caught completely off guard when it happened?. I think it is an interesting experiment but none the less , Useless in the Sim Community.

[Adam Hulse]

Vojislav,

I see what you are trying to say but i dont think it is necessary to go "re-enact" the crash and try to feel what the pilots/flight crew/pax felt. The reason I am saying this is I was faced with death just over a year ago. However, when people tell me they know what it felt like and stuff, i almost take it offensivly. I know you are trying to be nice but truly, you dont know what they felt and I dont think they would want you to feel what they did..

Just my two cents

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Well, personally, I must say that such a subject I find quite disturbing. This subject would entail public re-creation of an aviation accident. It has been said here already that such proceedings are impossible to re-create with Flight Sim. You cannot re-create how they felt because you are piloting with the intention of crashing. You are not actually experiencing it; you are sitting at a desk watching a computer screen. Unless you're saying you have the intention of experiencing this firsthand, there's no reason to try it, especially considering that at the time, the flight crew themselves didn't actually know what was going on.

 

I think much discretion is required for such a depressing and morbid post. This could be taken at a very wrong level. Luckily Jeff hasn't taken this any further, but certainly you could have other relatives of other p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers/crew who run across this post, and take much offense and see much disrespect from it. However remote, it can happen.

 

-Steve O

Edited November 15, 2005 at 12:04 AM by Guest

[Aaron Crawley 935316]

Vojislav

 

The investigative board found that there was no way for the flight crew to know whether or not the leading edge flaps were deployed or retracted as there is no gauge in the cockpit + the flight crew cannot visibly see the wing looking out the window, there by douglas installed a light in the gauge cluster to indicate when the leading edge devices are extended.

 

I go with the rest of the gang that has replied, the forums may not be the best place to post this sort of thing.

 

Best Regards,

 

AC

[Terry Kocher 919807]

why is it so difficult to understand other people point of view.

Pot.Kettle.Black

 

Hehe tom my dad used to use those phrases..never gets old.

 

 

--

 

I thought I'd have my little say in this discussion,

 

I've never had a friend or relative die in a plane crash..I've never been in one, and hope never to be...but I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you this, in no way shape or form am I ever going to recreate one...that is sheer pointless, if my engine were to cut out on VATSIM (note I said if..since my pilot career here since early April I have never had an engine failure)..I would use my other engine to continue the flight-if I can't..I will log of the server.

 

Just the words "Declaring an emergency" on VATSIM just sounds bad..portrays you more as a newb than anything.

[Daniel Roesen]

Just the words "Declaring an emergency" on VATSIM just sounds bad..portrays you more as a newb than anything.

 

I disagree. An emergency (which is being accepted by ATC) is welcomed diversion from routine and puts some color into the lifes of CTR, APP and TWR controllers.

 

I myself was on approach to LLBG where I couldn't get my gear down, so I declared emergency, went into a holding, dumped fuel and did a gear-up landing at LLBG later on. There were no less than six(!) planes on ground watching "the show" and waiting for me to finish fuel dumping and landing the A340-300 on belly. They had great fun. Was something "different".

 

For ATC such emergencies will e.g. mean that they have to quickly follow emergency procedures they seldom get to try out, move traffic away, get the plane declaring emergency in coordination down as quickly as sensible. Tower has to stop outbounds etc, has possibly to close one runway where an abnormal landing occured etc.

 

If done professionally and in very small doses, emergencies are a nice touch to the game.

 

Regards,

Daniel

[Andrew Steinberg 939662]

I had an emergency right after takeoff from KATL. My left engine went out, and I was just about to reach my departure gate(NOTWO), I called in and said that my engine blew and I needed to get back. The controller turned me around and gave me direct right back to the airport. It was a great expereicne. (Controller was Mark Polston--great guy!)

 

Anyways, I don't think that there is such a big problem with having an emergency--if your engine fails and ATC is willing to cooperate, go with it. However, recreating emergencies in my mind is ridiculous and should not be allowed.

[Jeremy Burch 884968]

I agree Andrew.

 

(from the Man of Few Words dept.)