Anthony Carbott Posted May 15, 2011 at 02:27 PM Posted May 15, 2011 at 02:27 PM A moment ago, I heard a Heathrow controller reject someones flight plan due to it not being vaild. What exactly constitues an invalid flight plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Tim Barber Posted May 15, 2011 at 02:37 PM Board of Governors Posted May 15, 2011 at 02:37 PM Could be any number of things...did the controller give any indication what the problem was? If any one of the data fields in the flight plan contains incorrect information, that would cause a problem...such as inappropriate altitude, or a routing that doesnt make sense. I once had a Cessna 172 file FL310 as an altitude. That was an issue. Tim Barber VATSIM President Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 15, 2011 at 03:04 PM Author Posted May 15, 2011 at 03:04 PM Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to hear from the controller what the issue was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sava Markovic 1109329 Posted May 15, 2011 at 03:09 PM Posted May 15, 2011 at 03:09 PM Like Tim said It could be a 1000 things. Routing, altitude, speed... Sava Markovic SCGvACC Events Coordinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted May 15, 2011 at 04:45 PM Posted May 15, 2011 at 04:45 PM Hi Anthony, Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to hear from the controller what the issue was. Then email VATSIM-UK and find out rather than trying to start a witch hunt on the forums. If the controller was at fault, then addressing the controller directly through his superiors is a far better way to go than trying to humiliate him on a public forum. It sort of gets the message across better and leads to the controller working traffic again rather than being afraid of everything he does being picked apart publicly. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 15, 2011 at 05:57 PM Author Posted May 15, 2011 at 05:57 PM Hi Anthony, Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to hear from the controller what the issue was. Then email VATSIM-UK and find out rather than trying to start a witch hunt on the forums. If the controller was at fault, then addressing the controller directly through his superiors is a far better way to go than trying to humiliate him on a public forum. It sort of gets the message across better and leads to the controller working traffic again rather than being afraid of everything he does being picked apart publicly. Cheers! Start a witch hunt? Humiliate on a public forum? I've used the forum for it's intended purpose, to have a discussion. I have not done or said anything wrong. I suggest that if you have an issue yourself, YOU email Vatsim, rather than trying to start an argument on a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Wheeler 988924 Posted May 15, 2011 at 07:56 PM Posted May 15, 2011 at 07:56 PM Was it the one that said DCT GPS? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 15, 2011 at 11:00 PM Author Posted May 15, 2011 at 11:00 PM No idea. It was curiosity that made me ask why would a plan be invalid. As I'd not want to ever file a plan that's invalid. In my eyes, if all waypoints exist inbetween the sid and star, then it should be fine, hence why I asked. I do remember once though, having a plan rejected, despite that fact that the route was from the Standard Route Docomeent issued in the UK IAIP. I even explained this and was told it's not a standard route. The controller wouldn't have it. It did seem odd that the UK IAIP wasn't being adhered to at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wolpert Posted May 15, 2011 at 11:28 PM Posted May 15, 2011 at 11:28 PM I can't speak for the controller in question here but I know in my FIR that many times an invalid flight plan takes the aircraft out through the arrival corridor. This can happen quite easily when using flight planning software where the software tends to look for a close VOR as the first waypoint. Generally when this happens controllers try to give an explanation like "AAL123 your filed flight plan takes you through the arrival route can you accept an amendment ?" Depending on workload this may not be possible in every case. Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Thomson Posted May 16, 2011 at 09:52 AM Posted May 16, 2011 at 09:52 AM To aid in identifying the problem, would you be able to show us the flight plan you submitted, route, flight level etc. Only this way can we discover what could have been the problem! Kris Kris Thomson C1 CTP Planning Team member VATSIM UK Live! Organiser Follow VATSIM UK Live! on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 16, 2011 at 11:57 AM Author Posted May 16, 2011 at 11:57 AM To aid in identifying the problem, would you be able to show us the flight plan you submitted, route, flight level etc. Only this way can we discover what could have been the problem! Kris I can't, it wasn't a flight plan I submitted. As I said, I heard a controller inform a pilot that his plan was invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Thomson Posted May 16, 2011 at 12:20 PM Posted May 16, 2011 at 12:20 PM Ah right okay sorry I misread. In this case it would be hard for us to give you a precise answer as we don't know what was wrong with the FP that has been sent! If you notice it again then maybe have a look on servinfo/vatspy and see the FP in question. That way you might get an indication as to what the problem could be. Normally when I am on heathrow, if a FP is wrong I PM the pilot to get it sorted, so if there is a problem don't worry the controller will normally help unless he is very busy! Kris Kris Thomson C1 CTP Planning Team member VATSIM UK Live! Organiser Follow VATSIM UK Live! on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave James 1018738 Posted May 17, 2011 at 10:49 AM Posted May 17, 2011 at 10:49 AM What exactly constitues an invalid flight plan? As above, literally "anything" submitted by the pilot in the data fields of the flight plan. The chances are, with all controllers at Heathrow having an extra major validation atop of their rating to operate ATC services from that field, that the plan rejected was in fact incorrect in some respect. The most common rejections would be the initial departure route/runway specific(SID) or the frequent submission by some of only DCT being placed in the route portion. Search the UK forum for flight plan as thee are a few discussion topics related to validity (in UK airspace) that go into some detail, these can be educational for both pilots and controllers. - heres just one. http://community.vatsim-uk.co.uk/topic/21685-fp-problem/ David James VATSIM Screenshot Contest Coordinator Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6600 2.4gig, RAM 3.25gig, ATI Radeon HD4800, XP Pro SP3, FS9.1 FSnav FSinn VRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cierpial 1008209 Posted May 18, 2011 at 02:15 PM Posted May 18, 2011 at 02:15 PM Anthony, As Paul said, just shoot an email to the VATUK Staff and describe the situation, what you remember, what you know, etc. From there, I'm sure they'll be able to not only answer your question better than us but also look into the issue more and perhaps provide some additional training to the controller in question involved. CTP Planning Team Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Tyndall 1087023 Posted May 18, 2011 at 03:45 PM Posted May 18, 2011 at 03:45 PM My apologies for piggybacking on Anthony's Post but this is a related question. I have been watching this thread with interest and thought of it yesterday as I loaded up at Dublin in a DC-6B planning a flight to Gander, Canada. I planned on using VOR's and NDB's to the Ireland Coast and as far out to sea as I could pick them up by flying a course away from the signal. Then a rudimentary "celestial navigation" of sorts (sneaking a peak at the map from time to time and adjusting course to hit specific lat/long crossings...wish I knew how to use a sextant) then picking up YQX when in range. I filed for 6,000 feet over to the Irish Coast and then amended my flightplan and climbed to 16,000 once over the water. DUB SHA LP N5314 N5331 N5237 N5241 N5146 N5050 YQX I was kinda concerned ATC would be on and reject my flightplan even though I filed for well under the NAT levels. Trying to do it "Old School" in a modern environment sometimes is met with resistance. However, there was no ATC on, which struck me as odd at 1730Z. EURO West signed on once I was out to sea, but since I was below FL245 he never asked me to contact him. Anyway, was this reasonably correct? Is there a better process? Any suggestions? By the way, took me 8 hours and 4 minutes to complete the flight and I had 2,700 lbs of fuel left when I shut down the engines at Gander. Not much room for a go-around or divert, huh? It was kinda fun setting MAP, Prop RPM, and mixture for best fuel use/speed and transferring fuel for weight and balance. Randy Tyndall - KBOI ZLA I-11/vACC Portugal P4 “A ship is always safe in the harbor. But that’s not why they build ships” --Michael Bevington ID 814931, Former VATSIM Board of Governors Vice President of Pilot Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas George 827476 Posted May 18, 2011 at 05:41 PM Posted May 18, 2011 at 05:41 PM Hi Randy, Not speaking about your navigation skills but so long as you fly in a manner that is considerate to those around you and otherwise compliant with the Code of Conduct you can do what you want, frankly! Most of the time SUPs get called when there is an unresponsive pilot causing (or at risk of causing) a conflict. You would have been responsive I trust and at 16k over the Atlantic I think it's safe to say that you weren't causing anyone any problems! Regards, Thomas George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Tyndall 1087023 Posted May 18, 2011 at 09:54 PM Posted May 18, 2011 at 09:54 PM Thank you Thomas for your reply. I plan on taking the Connie back sometime soon. Randy Tyndall - KBOI ZLA I-11/vACC Portugal P4 “A ship is always safe in the harbor. But that’s not why they build ships” --Michael Bevington ID 814931, Former VATSIM Board of Governors Vice President of Pilot Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Byrne Posted May 19, 2011 at 05:13 AM Posted May 19, 2011 at 05:13 AM Hi Randy, I'd also say that if a controller was to question your plan, just explain what you are doing (retro aircraft/nav equipment/celestial navigation etc.). Considering your altitude over the Atlantic and through Irish airspace, I doubt you would be getting in any ones way so I doubt any controller would refuse your plan in that regard. You may have to receive vectors out of Dublin, but that would be the most you would do. If you were to do that out of Heathrow as the original posters question was in relation to, it would probably involve a lot more coordination with the controllers as the airspace in London is far more complex than Irish airspace. Not saying they wouldn't get you out, but you'd have to work with the controllers to get a suitable alternative that works for everyone. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 19, 2011 at 12:09 PM Author Posted May 19, 2011 at 12:09 PM Anthony,As Paul said, just shoot an email to the VATUK Staff and describe the situation, what you remember, what you know, etc. From there, I'm sure they'll be able to not only answer your question better than us but also look into the issue more and perhaps provide some additional training to the controller in question involved. Well as said several times now, I don't know what the situation was, just wanted to know what may constitute and invalid flight plan. I've got enough ideas now of what that could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Speer Posted May 19, 2011 at 12:45 PM Posted May 19, 2011 at 12:45 PM If you were to do that out of Heathrow as the original posters question was in relation to, it would probably involve a lot more coordination with the controllers as the airspace in London is far more complex than Irish airspace. Not saying they wouldn't get you out, but you'd have to work with the controllers to get a suitable alternative that works for everyone. Just to add a Heathrow controllers perspective. It shouldn't be a problem. You would need to fly a valid SID but at the moment we have no RNAV departures so all SIDs can be flown using VOR/NDB equipment anyway which would certainly suit a DC6 era aircraft. If you were flying a similar routing from EGLL you'd likely be flying CPT BCN STU towards DUB and the CPT SID is pretty much a straight line with a couple of kinks (on westerlies). Phillip VATSIM UK Divisional Instructor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Tyndall 1087023 Posted May 22, 2011 at 02:27 AM Posted May 22, 2011 at 02:27 AM Great, Thanks for the replies everyone and to Anthony I apologize for tacking on to your post, but it seemed a related question. Thanks again to all. Randy Randy Tyndall - KBOI ZLA I-11/vACC Portugal P4 “A ship is always safe in the harbor. But that’s not why they build ships” --Michael Bevington ID 814931, Former VATSIM Board of Governors Vice President of Pilot Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Carbott Posted May 25, 2011 at 12:25 PM Author Posted May 25, 2011 at 12:25 PM No problem at all Randy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Brady 1158151 Posted June 2, 2011 at 10:59 AM Posted June 2, 2011 at 10:59 AM >>>>>>>>> I once had a Cessna 172 file FL310 as an altitude. That was an issue. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< That has just made my week =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts