Sean Averre 1138957 Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:21 AM Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:21 AM Hello, Im here to ask a question on flying in the US. I fly In Europe (my home) so its a bit different. First do you choose your own departure and arrival route? Normally in Europe you get [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned one by the clearance delivery and once I was flying in the US so asked the arrival controller to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign me an arrival route and the controller took a while to respond and sounded confused so just gave me vectors. Thanks for your help and have a happy new year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mauro Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:26 AM Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:26 AM you can find routes on www.flightaware.com, www.vataware.com, even www.simroutes.com and www.fltplan.com from/to various airports in the US. many routes already include the SID and STAR.. in Europe, you are [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned a SID/STAR based on the runway. in the US, 9/10, the SIDS/STARS work for all runways.. file the route and you'll be sent on your way. if something is wrong with the route, ATC will tell you.. Cheers! Chris Mauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:29 AM Posted December 30, 2011 at 04:29 AM generally, yes you put that into your flightplan on our side of the pond, unless its marked "ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned" on the chart or if its runway specific. chris beat me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mauro Posted December 30, 2011 at 07:05 AM Posted December 30, 2011 at 07:05 AM chris beat me hehehehe Chris Mauro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Averre 1138957 Posted December 30, 2011 at 11:19 AM Author Posted December 30, 2011 at 11:19 AM so to confim I would put a chosen SID STAR in my flight plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted December 30, 2011 at 01:02 PM Posted December 30, 2011 at 01:02 PM so to confim I would put a chosen SID STAR in my flight plan? Yes. Make sure that it conforms to your route, though. Having a SID that takes you in the opposite direction of our route is bad. Therefore, before you choose them, read them. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Averre 1138957 Posted December 30, 2011 at 01:19 PM Author Posted December 30, 2011 at 01:19 PM thanks guys, Im starting to think either its much easier for the pilots flying in the US or its a bit un organized at the ATC centre but hey, Im a pilot thanks everyone and have a happy new year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted December 30, 2011 at 02:03 PM Posted December 30, 2011 at 02:03 PM thanks guys, Im starting to think either its much easier for the pilots flying in the US or its a bit un organized at the ATC centre but hey, Im a pilot thanks everyone and have a happy new year We put the planning work on the pilot. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Rodgers 910155 Posted December 31, 2011 at 07:37 PM Posted December 31, 2011 at 07:37 PM We put the planning work on the pilot. Where it belongs. I don't like surprises when I'm flying. I know the Euro SID/STARs are all relatively similar (between [sID]5E and [sID]5B), but still. Kyle Rodgers The content of this post, unless expressly written, refers only to those procedures in the United States of America, following the Federal Aviation Administration Regulations thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted December 31, 2011 at 08:23 PM Posted December 31, 2011 at 08:23 PM We put the planning work on the pilot. Where it belongs. I don't like surprises when I'm flying. I know the Euro SID/STARs are all relatively similar (between [sID]5E and [sID]5B), but still. You mean like when En-Route re-routes you because a specific arrival is too full and TMU is moving some traffic through another gate? Or departures re-route you through a different departure gate. Happens in the US. I find the difference to be no big issue. Heck, it gives European TMU coordinators more flexibility to route people without pilots complaining because they have to fly a different arrival than they expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Rodgers 910155 Posted January 2, 2012 at 05:06 PM Posted January 2, 2012 at 05:06 PM How often does that happen, really? It really doesn't happen as often as you think. Most of what you see, en-route, is shortcuts at the max. If anything, it's a few flights here or there, and the rest is intercepted at airline dispatch and changed before departure. In the Euro environment, it's every flight. I see where you're coming from, in terms of flexibility, but it's not like ATC can't change it here, and we hardly have runway-dependent STARs anyway. Kyle Rodgers The content of this post, unless expressly written, refers only to those procedures in the United States of America, following the Federal Aviation Administration Regulations thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted January 2, 2012 at 06:32 PM Posted January 2, 2012 at 06:32 PM How often does that happen, really? It really doesn't happen as often as you think. Most of what you see, en-route, is shortcuts at the max. If anything, it's a few flights here or there, and the rest is intercepted at airline dispatch and changed before departure. ATC changes departure gates all the time here in Pensacola. And most of the aircraft here don't have fancy FMS' that allow you to click a couple buttons to change it. Also heard ZJX change STARs for MIA arrivals on several occasions for traffic flows on normal Saturdays (aka, non-holiday weekend). It really isn't as hard as you're making it out to be. You enter a route that terminates at the standard point you would terminate at in the US, then instead of clicking the approach button to select your STAR, you just continue as if you were going direct the airport from that point. Then in the air, you get [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned the STAR far enough out that you most likely haven't even reached TOD and hit 2-3 buttons to add it. It's very minimal effort, so don't know why you make it out to be a big deal. Heck, even with a Reality XP GNS where I have to put in the fixes manually it's still pretty easy. Most of the time you can look at the runways in use and guess the active STAR and program that and if ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns a different one then it's a small switch. I did a lot of flights to/from London Stanstead, and got to the point that I was able to guess my SID before I even called up for Clearance. I bet others who fly Europe have gotten to the point that they can pretty much guess the procedures in use long before they call up/get [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Rodgers 910155 Posted January 2, 2012 at 09:24 PM Posted January 2, 2012 at 09:24 PM It's not a huge deal, no, and I'm not making it one. However, as a pilot (referencing RW here, not my FMS-equipped virtual stuff) I'd like to know my full route with 95% certainty ahead of time. It gives me mental prep time for it. It also takes that part of the equation out of one of the most crucial parts of the flight. Statistically speaking, incidents increase as altitude decreases (a very vague statement, but this isn't so much a discussion about incidents as it is procedures), and the earlier I can brief my arrival, have it set up, and have myself mentally prepared for the flow of things, the better. I know how simple it is to do. I've done it /A and /G outside the sim, and I've done it all kinds of different ways here in the sim. Heck, I've done it with a CIVA INS in the Concorde here in the sim. Talk about manual entry... My point is not that it's difficult, it's that flying is all about predictability. That's the entire reason we have the FARs, the AIM and the 7110.65. Without predictability, it's really hard to add order to chaos. Clearly, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning a STAR as ATC doesn't end the world, else the JAR guys wouldn't be flying at all. My point was more of a personal preference, and an indicator that it's a little easier to satisfy 91.103 if I know with a good amount of certainty what's going to happen before the flight. Kyle Rodgers The content of this post, unless expressly written, refers only to those procedures in the United States of America, following the Federal Aviation Administration Regulations thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted January 3, 2012 at 12:01 AM Posted January 3, 2012 at 12:01 AM Ask European controllers how much "Chaos" they have. Also, unlike the US, Europe has moved to an almost all RNAV based routing system. All of their high altitude routes are RNAV now. The US is far from it. So, the aircraft that have to deal with this are all RNAV, usually FMC equipped. I've flown several times in Europe and have seen zero chaos. You also can plan your route with 95% certainty once you get familiar with the area. Pull up charts, look at your route and weather. Using that you can determine most of your route. Lets look at a high altitude route of EGLL DVR L9 KONAN UL607 SPI UT180 PESOV T180 UNOKO EDDF DVR = DOVER, so I pulled up the SIDs for EGLL. Dover is one of them. Pull up the DVR SID, you got DVR 5F and 4G. They are runway dependent, but follow the same route. No biggie there. Now UNOKO, you look at the weather to determine which is most likely active. 25 or 7. This limits you to a total of 2 choices for the RNAV side for UNOKO. ATC will default to the RNAV unless your flight plan says you're not RNAV. If you're /A, then you pull up the other chart which still has 2 choices dependent on which direction is active. To me, that's 95% certainty. And their STARS are a little different than what we have because they terminate on the instrument approach itself. Outside of LAX and a few others, US STARS don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Averre 1138957 Posted January 3, 2012 at 05:22 AM Author Posted January 3, 2012 at 05:22 AM and in europe regarding being certain with your routes you can also try to predict the routes you would be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to by the controllers. Its not 100% but you would get better at it the more you do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Rodgers 910155 Posted January 3, 2012 at 03:07 PM Posted January 3, 2012 at 03:07 PM Nowhere in my post did I imply the EU system was chaos. In fact, the only references made prior to my mention of the word chaos were to that of the FAA system. My only real reference to the word, however, was that of a colloqualism. The aviation world, without regulation and predictability would be chaos. With the regulations and systems of predictability, it is less so. Ever heard ATC or flight ops described as organized chaos? Actually, it's not even worth the debate really, because all I'm stating is a matter of personal preference. As a pilot, I like control of where I'm going. [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning me a route mid-flight is something that goes against that idea, ergo I don't like it. End of story. Kyle Rodgers The content of this post, unless expressly written, refers only to those procedures in the United States of America, following the Federal Aviation Administration Regulations thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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