Daniel Costa 1215076 Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:28 PM Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:28 PM content removed by mod. you can't use tricks to circomevent the potty mouth filters. - kwr 810181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Caffey Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:31 PM Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:31 PM While I have no [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociation with ZNY, looking at the event banner it's pretty clear that the event end time is 2300Z. Since this was a live event, I'm guessing that they only had the room until that time, so they couldn't stay on longer. I know the only live event I've participated in as a controller was that way. Steven Caffey (SY) ZLA Controller "A mile of highway gets you one mile, but a mile of runway can take you anywhere." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:35 PM Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:35 PM Yup. For most live events, there's a set time where everyone gets off just due to the location requirements. I'm betting this was the case. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Costa 1215076 Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM Author Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:41 PM Well i can understand that but with some plannig they should've allowed for some overtime. leaving while there are plenty of planes in the airspace it's just wrong. I've played in other events where the controllers would stay at least until most of the traffic would've landed or at the minimun a managed airspace where pilos would be able to fly without a controller. Next time i'd suggest more planning for this events especially on an event this magnitude around NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:50 PM Posted February 18, 2012 at 11:50 PM Well i can understand that but with some plannig they should've allowed for some overtime. leaving while there are plenty of planes in the airspace it's just wrong. I've played in other events where the controllers would stay at least until most of the traffic would've landed or at the minimun a managed airspace where pilos would be able to fly without a controller. Next time i'd suggest more planning for this events especially on an event this magnitude around NY. Yes, but they aren't paying money to rent out a location. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Muenster 1149119 Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:06 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:06 AM I fail to see how you can be angry with controllers for logging off when the events over. Paying to rent a space or not, 4 hours and more of controlling in high traffic situations, by the end you're ready to logoff. Plus you have to consider that with a live convention there are other things besides actually controlling that go along with it like a group dinner, and when you're renting these places you have to keep a tight schedule. My only advice would be that next time plan your flight better so you get there inside the prescribed times for the event. John Muenster (MR) - Minneapolis ARTCC Unless expressly written, my comments in no way reflect the opinions of any ARTCC I am affiliated with, they are personal opinions only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Sequeira 1192651 Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:12 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:12 AM WOW....some people. They spent money for this, and people are still complaining. To all the controllers, you guys did great, and a ton of people really do appreciate it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Don Desfosse Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:22 AM Board of Governors Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:22 AM While I share your disappointment with controllers all disappearing when there's plenty of traffic in the airspace, especially during FNOs, and have personally gone out of my way several times to stay online for hours after an event end time to handle the traffic load still in the airspace, live events are decidedly different. Live events, where there are multiple (often over a dozen, and in New York's case yesterday, about 50) controllers online together in the same room. Many times, those rooms are rented out for a set period of time (and when time's up, time's up, period), and the controllers have reservations go out for dinner and camaraderie at the end of the event. And when you've rented out a dinner venue, or made reservations for 20, 30, 40, etc., you don't have a ton of flexibility. For those reasons alone, most live events will/must really hold to their end time. And, for the most part, most or all of the active controllers on the ARTCC's roster are at the event, so there's not enough staffing left (people at home) to keep the event going (without providing inadequate service to whoever is left over in the airspace). May I suggest that instead of being disappointed, you should appreciate that fact that these controllers spent their own well-earned money to come together, control for you, and build the camaraderie that helps them become/stay a great team and keeps them motivated to keep participating on this wonderful network. Don Desfosse Vice President, Operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Pedraglio Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:29 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:29 AM Well i can understand that but with some plannig they should've allowed for some overtime. Next time fly there earlier. They said they were open until 2300Z. Try going to a store at 2330Z and tell them "you should allow for overtime, and allow me to get in!" Diego Pedraglio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gerrish Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:32 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:32 AM well said Don. Something to go with the events on top of controllers running for 4 or more hours at a stent, we also have RW commitments and spouses ect that tend to get miffed when we control for too long. The boys and girls at ZNY always put on a good show, but they (or any other artccc) can't tell their controllers only a few can come to the event because we need people to be where they can work past the end Try going to a store at 2330Z and tell them "you should allow for overtime, and allow me to get in!" Even out in Sin City and the Big Apple closing time is closing time. Event wise its a [Mod - lovely stuff] shoot whether there will be fresh controllers or scheduled one that can work before and past the event windows Richard Gerrish Developer, STM Applications Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Costa 1215076 Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:58 AM Author Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:58 AM I guess none of you were flying into ewr while all the controllers were signning off and did not get to experience what the situation. I understand what you guys are saying about time. Besides the comment that someone posted about going to a store by Diego, it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Don Desfosse Posted February 19, 2012 at 01:12 AM Board of Governors Posted February 19, 2012 at 01:12 AM Actually, though not the EWR event, I can empathize because I have flown in multiple FNOs where there were easily 50+ aircraft still in the airspace, and the entire controller force just up and left (with no notice, which is even worse). So yes, I do get it (and many others do too). Thanks for considering and appreciating the differences [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with the live events, though. Don Desfosse Vice President, Operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Tyndall 1087023 Posted February 19, 2012 at 03:22 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 03:22 AM Daniel, I've played in other events You've been a member of VATSIM for 42 days...how many events could you possibly have flown in 42 days...that's not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know. but with some planni(n)g they should've allowed for some overtime. Daniel you took off out of Newark bound for Heathrow at 2013Z, right in the middle of the event. You probably got some great ATC right about then. One hour and 32 minutes later at 2145Z you disconnected and showed up in Boston 7 minutes later with a KBOS to KEWR flightplan. How much planning could you have possibly done in 7 minutes? Again, not a rhetorical question, It typically takes me a good 30 to 45 minutes to properly plan and set up my aircraft for a flight, so how did you do it in only 7 minutes. You want ATC to plan for you, but planning for ATC only gets 7 minutes of your time? Give yourself and VATSIM some time to adjust to each other. 200 hours in only 42 days is a good figure, 5 hours per day every day, but from looking at the statistics the majority looked like 30 minute or less flights, even on the overseas ones. Take the time to enjoy every aspect of VATSIM cause it's a wonderful place. And for what it's worth, the majority of us here either control or fly or both...but we don't play. It's a hobby yes, and a fun one at that, if you give it a chance, but it's not a game. It's a simulation...and a darned good one. Randy By the way, on your VATSIM flightplans your proposed altitude is written as 34000 or FL340, not 340. VATSIM thinks 340 is 340 feet above sea level. I saw a lot of flightplans where ATC had to amend it to the correct flight level. That's part of the "planning" I was talking about. Randy Tyndall - KBOI ZLA I-11/vACC Portugal P4 “A ship is always safe in the harbor. But that’s not why they build ships” --Michael Bevington ID 814931, Former VATSIM Board of Governors Vice President of Pilot Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Nadasi 1170487 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:00 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:00 AM (edited) Hi guys, I was personally at the event and the time limit was clear. BY 2300Z we all had to be out of the room as there was a different event in the same room after us. As said before, this was a live event, and people couldn't control for as long as they might've wanted to. The fact that there were aircraft in the airspace at the end of the event was expected, and to say it was wrong to "leave" the pilots stranded is understandable but also not fair- we did have a time limit and couldn't stay forever. Thanks for participating in the event, and we hope you join us again at ZNY. All the best, Alex Nadasi Edited February 20, 2012 at 04:10 PM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Koskey 1067284 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:56 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:56 AM By the way, on your VATSIM flightplans your proposed altitude is written as 34000 or FL340, not 340. VATSIM thinks 340 is 340 feet above sea level. I saw a lot of flightplans where ATC had to amend it to the correct flight level. That's part of the "planning" I was talking about. Kind of off topic, but I always file my altitude using "065" for 6,500 ft and no controller has ever mentioned, nor have I ever seen any mention of it in the forums that it is incorrect on VATSIM. It is the way it's done for r/w flight plans, at least when I file online using DUAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Coon 1097126 Posted February 19, 2012 at 07:36 AM Posted February 19, 2012 at 07:36 AM Well I flew in and out of EWR a couple times during the the event, and thought the controllers all did pretty well! Although one controller yelled at me for not being able to do 210 kts until 5 mile final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Vianna 1159285 Posted February 19, 2012 at 01:35 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 01:35 PM (edited) Well I flew in and out of EWR a couple times during the the event, and thought the controllers all did pretty well! Although one controller yelled at me for not being able to do 210 kts until 5 mile final. Please put yourself in the controller's shoes for a moment. Conflict alerts are loud. They hurt your ears and get you ridiculed by the other controllers in the room . Seriously, it's nice you had a good time. Send some feedback about that speed restriction, though. 210kts seems a bit unreasonable. In my approach training, I've been told that 190kts is the max you should give on final (even if it isn't part of the regulations). Edited February 19, 2012 at 03:48 PM by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Costa 1215076 Posted February 19, 2012 at 03:02 PM Author Posted February 19, 2012 at 03:02 PM WOW... Look at this thing. I guess I'm not allowed to post how I feel about an event. I even had someone going out of his way looking at my stats and noob errors and never the less taking his time to post it. To the guy that took his time... I'm new at Vatsim. I'm learning and getting better at it. Of course I have made some errors and at times have done some stupid moves in the air and yes I've disconnected because i didn't wanna make a fool of myself and interrupt other pilots and controllers. Thank you for pointing it out that when I file my plans I've filed 340 and instead I should've have filed FL340. Next time I will correct that. To the rest of people that responded to this post you're all right. I'm not at the controllers shoes and no I did not know exactly how this whole system works yet. Thank you for telling instead of looking a my stats and posting here publicly. I wanna thank all the NY controllers for being patient with me while I'm flying. I think you guys do a great job. Daniel Vatsim NOOB and proud of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Otero Posted February 19, 2012 at 04:11 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 04:11 PM All I hear is : ME!!! ME!!!! ME!!!! and ME!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bergin 931070 Posted February 19, 2012 at 04:35 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 04:35 PM You've been a member of VATSIM for 42 days...how many events could you possibly have flown in 42 days...that's not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know. Just in Europe in the last 42 days there have been over thirty events, not including weekly events. And that is just Europe, I'am sure that the other Regions have had a good number as well (the US For example have had at least 7 FNO'S)...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Sjoholm 1133704 Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:06 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:06 PM I didnt get time to fly this event, so my comments are meant more as general remarks rather than specific for this event. The way I look at it is that controllers are of course allowed to log of whenever they like, however, it is kinda bad etiquette to log off at the moment the event ends, especially when their sector is crammed full of planes. When all the controllers from one artcc decides to log off at the exact moment the event ends it makes their ARTCC look bad. From what I've been reading it seems like the planning was a bit clumsy for this event. Maybe it would have been an idea to get a couple of controllers to stay behind so to say and guide the remaining planes back to the ground. Surely there was a bunch of the controllers on ZNYs roster that wasnt able to attend the live event? Perhaps somebody from overseas or the other side of the country or something. Something to think about for the next live event Somehow rated s3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahul Parkar Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:21 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:21 PM Wim, So, just because people didn't get service because they flew in AFTER the event was meant to end, there should be somebody who doesn't attend the live event that has to pick up these pilots? They didn't "decide" to log off at the same time, they HAD to, they booked an area for them to control between two times of the day, once their time has expired, they leave, no ifs or buts. In my opinion the event was planned just fine, the pilot planning on the other hand was clumsy, if they can't plan their flight to end prior to the event ending, then they should not complain that they didn't get service. It's like a store, when the store closes, that's it, No staff stay around for an extra half hour just to make sure a few customers can come in to the store and buy something, they'll have to wait until tomorrow (or in this case, next time). To me, all this is, is pilots whining that they could not plan their flights to end within the allocated time for the event. P.S. If this was Facebook, I'd be liking your post Frank. Cheers! Rahul Rahul Parkar "On second thoughts Nappa, catch it, catch it with your teeth" -- Vegeta Professional Nerd. (Professionally not professional) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Sjoholm 1133704 Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:31 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:31 PM That would be the most proper way to deal with it. They are of course allowed to deal with it how they prefer to do it. There will always be traffic after an event have ended, infact, the heaviest traffic is often just after an event have ended. It could have been planned for, its not like this was the first time zny held an event. This is not a store, this is the small community of vatsim. But when I think about it, I have never been told to leave a store, just because their opening hours just ended. I have always been allowed to pick up what I wanted to buy before they closed. I dont think people will stop flying into zny airspace because of it or anything, it is after all zny. But I think if this was a smaller, less glamorous artcc then there would probably be quite a few pilots that would decide not to fly in that area for a while. I know that if I control during an event and I have planes inbound then I'm staying online until those planes have been taken care of. It is the proper way to deal with it for me. Other people might have a different way of looking at it. Somehow rated s3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Walsh Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:49 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 05:49 PM All I hear is : ME!!! ME!!!! ME!!!! and ME!!!! +1 See the customer service desk about a refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Sequeira 1192651 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:24 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:24 PM I think I am getting the feeling that some of these posters are still not understanding two main things here. 1:) The controllers were NOT all at their own homes. They were at a RENTED area together. 2:) When your rental time is up, meaning the ending of a contract, you can't just say..."oh wait, people didn't plan their flight in the timeline we gave, I need to stay..." Give them a break, they went out and did this voluntarily, and they are catching flack for it....come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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