Daniel Costa 1215076 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:34 PM Author Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:34 PM Right now I fell that I've beign shot down by some members for expressing how someone feels about an event. For not having a complete understating how an event works and admitting that. Right now I don't even feel like flying on vatsim anymore. There for Ive requested that my membership to be cancelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Sequeira 1192651 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:40 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:40 PM Sorry you feel that way, and that was I am sure, not others or my intentions on the replies that you have received. Sure wish you would re think it, but its your call. You did come off, bashing a group of people, without knowing how things work, or the event that was in the works for that matter. People stuck up for the controllers, who make this place a part of what it is...and corrected a erroneous statement made by you... No harm, no foul....people get over it. Sometimes it just seems like the world comes down on you around here due to the sheer volume of replies you will get in a short time. Brush it off mate, and fly more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:44 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:44 PM Sorry you feel that way, and that was I am sure, not others or my intentions on the replies that you have received. Nonsense. If people engage in research through the statistics for the sole point of dismantling a newbie's credibility in the forums, that is EXACTLY the intention. If an event stops abruptly with a ton of traffic on the scope, that's a negative. It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't understand the inner workings of an event to describe it as such. One can explain the logistical circomestances behind it in a friendly way. What no one's suggested (but I will) is that renting space may be a big plus for the controllers, it's also a big negative for pilots if there's a hard cutoff. If we're going to do that in the future, we should explicitly have off-site ATC to take over if necessary. Brush it off mate, and fly more.... I don't see why he should. His reaction is perfectly understandable and reasonable. Maybe all of the negative posters in this thread should have "brushed it off" too, no? Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Sequeira 1192651 Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:58 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 06:58 PM Ahh....I tried. I am not sure why someone went about His stats like that....your right on that one... But in the end, I honestly don't really care one way or the other, was just telling the chap to not catch feelings so fast, when He came out on the attack... You win some, and loose some...He got educated on how things worked...maybe if He came on with a question, or worded things differently, it would have been a different response string.....but again, it is what it is. To give it, you have to be able to take it back is the way I look at it. Some people were in the wrong with a straight personal attack, your right on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted February 19, 2012 at 07:35 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 07:35 PM While I agree that Daniel was perfectly justified in expressing his disappointment in how the end of the event was handled, I think that quitting VATSIM because of the reaction he got is just melodramatic playground tantrum-throwing. Daniel, my suggestion is to just ignore the folks on here that you feel are picking on you. If that sort of thing bothers you to the point of quitting VATSIM, then your skin is not thick enough for this forum. Either ignore them, or stay away from the forum. Quitting VATSIM over it (if you're actually considering quitting and that claim isn't just a pity plea) is really quite silly. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Walsh Posted February 19, 2012 at 08:23 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 08:23 PM Am I the only one that noticed his first post that started the topic was removed for language? He flew a successful flight in their airspace and then disconnected without finishing that flight. He reconnects in Boston in the hopes of getting the same ATC he must have liked before. He didn't plan for it yet it's alright to blame the ATC when they did as advertised and provided what they planned for? I have no idea what his first post was that was deleted by a Mod but I am guessing it wasn't thoughtful praise for the ATC or a rational , well thought out query as to why coverage didn't stay on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davor Kusec 990407 Posted February 19, 2012 at 10:44 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 10:44 PM Poor dead horse...he's getting beat a lot here. Davor Kusec Air Traffic Director | Northeast Region VATUSA Supervisor | VATSIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Muenster 1149119 Posted February 19, 2012 at 11:03 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 11:03 PM My question is why does any thread about a somewhat "touchy" subject get moved down to the United States sub-forum lately? (i.e Position Please) Sweeping your issues under the rug and hoping they'll go away isn't going to work forever. It poses a good thought, if the thread has to be hidden in a sub-forum where most don't scroll down that far to read shouldn't it just be deleted? With that said, in my view none of the threads recently moved require deletion, or hiding for that matter. A little cleaning of certain posts maybe, but at their core they have good topics for discussion. John Muenster (MR) - Minneapolis ARTCC Unless expressly written, my comments in no way reflect the opinions of any ARTCC I am affiliated with, they are personal opinions only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Blackburn Posted February 19, 2012 at 11:15 PM Posted February 19, 2012 at 11:15 PM The thread had no place in General Discussion. It pertains to an event within VATUSA so was moved there. In regard to burying - whilst it wont fit into the conspiracy theory, a great many users view new posts using the link search.php?search_id=newposts - this shows posts made, in order no matter their location. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Tyndall 1087023 Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:53 AM Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:53 AM Daniel, If you are still here, I'm the guy that dredged up your stats and for that I apologize. I'm not above saying "I'm sorry" when it is necessary. Are you? You threw a pretty big "disrespect" to NYARTCC when all they did was fulfill the intent of their event from start to finish. And you also did it publicly, as did I, where the entire membership could see your disrespect, so are you really much different from me? I should have kept quiet, but my p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for VATSIM overruled my edit process. You should have emailed the NYARTCC or posted in their forums, but being new probably didn't know that. I was elsewhere in the world so wasn't flying that event, but I'm pretty sure the airwaves didn't suddenly go dead. I'm reasonably certain, having flown NY airspace and "time sensitve" events in the past, that the controllers all explained they had to log off and directed everybody to UNICOM. But, regardless, what I did was wrong. I guess I see so many threads bashing ATC that I went overboard and shouldn't have. I am very p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about this network. I know that without ATC...and I am not nor have I ever been a controller...VATSIM would be nothing more than default FS with terrible ATC instructions. It is said here all the time, without Pilots ATC would be nothing or the opposite, without ATC Pilots would be nothing. VATSIM to me is a symbiotic relationship. Each of us benefits from the other and suffers when either is not there. But neither of us can be here all the time. It's a hobby and like most hobbies, life frequently gets in the way. We all, as pilots, when flying with default ATC have gotten the "turn left, turn right, turn left, turn right" instructions...nothing resembling what we enjoy here, yet it seems ATC can never make us as pilots happy. Well I am always thrilled when ATC is on, but fully understand when they are not or have to log off. My intent, even though I apparently failed at this miserably, was to ask you to give the network a chance, learn, read, participate. I do think I referenced that in my post though. Yes there is such a thing as constructive criticism that benefits us all, pilots and controllers. I could go on and on, that is the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion I spoke of, but I've said enough. In closing, again, I apologize and I do hope you are still among us and give the network a chance. Randy Randy Tyndall - KBOI ZLA I-11/vACC Portugal P4 “A ship is always safe in the harbor. But that’s not why they build ships” --Michael Bevington ID 814931, Former VATSIM Board of Governors Vice President of Pilot Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Don Desfosse Posted February 20, 2012 at 01:08 AM Board of Governors Posted February 20, 2012 at 01:08 AM Nope, he's gone. Lessons learned all around; we can all do better. Hopefully he'll take a few days off, take a few deep breaths, revisit the good advice he's been given, learn a few lessons himself, grow a bit thicker skin, and rejoin the community again. Don Desfosse Vice President, Operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Otero Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:22 AM Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:22 AM It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't understand the inner workings of an event to describe it as such. As in the first post that got removed? What no one's suggested (but I will) is that renting space may be a big plus for the controllers' date=' it's also a big negative for pilots if there's a hard cutoff. If we're going to do that in the future, we should explicitly have off-site ATC to take over if necessary.[/quote'] Those cheap, undedicated ATC Removed. Filters are there for a reason. NB 870575. How dare they?? They should have had a bigger budget and rent that room until the very last pilot landed, regardless of how long it took, no? and then also a back up crew, a second string, like their ATC bench , to take over just in case a straggler flew in. God forbid there is one unsatisfied pilot. I have other "suggestions"....how about charging the pilots who want to fly in the event in order to cover expenses, then they can whinne all they want. I do not even agree with this, but just trying to make a point. These guys put forth a great effort and what they got from a noob is a post full of profanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:45 AM Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:45 AM I can see how in this case it would have been *very* difficult to have an off-site crew on hand ready to take over at the end of the event. It sounds like the majority of the ZNY crew were on site ... I'd be surprised if they had enough controllers certified at the required levels (at least CTR and APP) in order to handle the significant amount of traffic still online at the event end time, at least with anything resembling quality service. When we do these live events at ZBW, we rent the facility for an hour past the advertised event closing time, not so that we can keep controlling for that extra hour, instead so that we can log off over a span of about 15 minutes instead of all at once, and so that we have the facility for enough time to clean up, pack up, and shoot the breeze for a while. And as we lead up to the closing hour, we all announce on frequency that we'll be closing up soon. (Not sure if ZNY did this, but if not, it would certainly be a good idea.) Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Wollenberg 810243 Posted February 20, 2012 at 06:22 AM Posted February 20, 2012 at 06:22 AM Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess. You try to host a good, live event, with friends you've made on the network, and you get bashed for logging off when the event ends. That's too bad. And we wonder why we're losing controllers on the network... Bryan Wollenberg ZLA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gerrish Posted February 20, 2012 at 09:23 AM Posted February 20, 2012 at 09:23 AM it's a good thing they weren't out in Vegas. When a Conference rooms are double booked like it gets ugly fast unless you know one or more of the tech staff working with you(or found out their favorite frosty beverage prior to) Richard Gerrish Developer, STM Applications Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:35 PM Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:35 PM Its just feedback. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it is his perspective. there might be something to learn for next time in it, might not, but if you reject it outright claiming he doesn't understand you miss the chance to make an event better next time. Best way to respond is to say, "Thank you for your feedback, it will be given to the organizers for future reference." All this ill bandwidth could be spared. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Robinson Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:19 PM Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:19 PM Its just feedback. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but it is his perspective. there might be something to learn for next time in it, might not, but if you reject it outright claiming he doesn't understand you miss the chance to make an event better next time. Best way to respond is to say, "Thank you for your feedback, it will be given to the organizers for future reference." All this ill bandwidth could be spared. As a member of the ZNY Staff who has been quietly reading this thread and has decided not to join in because there is no longer any point in debating what was or wasn't done, let me suggest that it is past time to shoot this horse. So I will simply say that "(We) Thank you for your feedback (and) it will be given to the organizers for future reference." Jeeez guys, we get it. Really. Ira __________ Ira Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:28 PM Posted February 20, 2012 at 03:28 PM Jeeez guys, we get it. Really. I don't think when ATC services were terminated is really the matter at hand any more. Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Nicola Felini Posted February 20, 2012 at 08:40 PM Board of Governors Posted February 20, 2012 at 08:40 PM Well i can understand that but with some plannig they should've allowed for some overtime. leaving while there are plenty of planes in the airspace it's just wrong. I've played in other events where the controllers would stay at least until most of the traffic would've landed or at the minimun a managed airspace where pilos would be able to fly without a controller. Next time i'd suggest more planning for this events especially on an event this magnitude around NY. Yes, but they aren't paying money to rent out a location. If you have a concern, I'd love to hear it via e-mail. Public criticism is just unprofessional. Many people spent many days planning this event, not to mention the funding involved. I am pretty sure the event times were specific, and nobody was going to miss the dinner they paid for. In a normal event scenario we would not have left any aircraft in the air. Nicola Felini Vice President | Conflict Resolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 20, 2012 at 09:49 PM Posted February 20, 2012 at 09:49 PM Well i can understand that but with some plannig they should've allowed for some overtime. leaving while there are plenty of planes in the airspace it's just wrong. I've played in other events where the controllers would stay at least until most of the traffic would've landed or at the minimun a managed airspace where pilos would be able to fly without a controller. Next time i'd suggest more planning for this events especially on an event this magnitude around NY. Yes, but they aren't paying money to rent out a location. If you have a concern, I'd love to hear it via e-mail. Public criticism is just unprofessional. Many people spent many days planning this event, not to mention the funding involved. I am pretty sure the event times were specific, and nobody was going to miss the dinner they paid for. In a normal event scenario we would not have left any aircraft in the air. Was this towards me or Daniel? I was agreeing with you all.. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Guffey 956726 Posted February 20, 2012 at 10:23 PM Posted February 20, 2012 at 10:23 PM Why I am even posting this is beyond me. (This is to all Vatsim pilots) The simple point to this thread is people have lives outside of Vatsim. There is a reason why an event says 0000Z-0400Z to let pilots know when the event starts and ends. Plan your flight accordingly and don't come on these forums and bash that ARTCC/FIR because you the pilot did not plan accordingly. There doesn't have to be bench warming ATC ready to jump on after the event ends. That's not what it is about. Its not about pleasing the pilots. ATC gets on because they are pleasing themselves in something they enjoy. If a pilot gets upset because ATC gets offline, so be it. Tough luck, go fly and support another ARTCC that is online. VATSIM Supervisor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Kreilein 881422 Posted February 21, 2012 at 03:45 AM Posted February 21, 2012 at 03:45 AM I think replies to the poster have been covered. The replies to the actual issue though have been a bit "thin" so here goes. ZNY held the event on the second floor of a restaurant owned by a member's father who graciously donated the space. We had to pay for our lunch and dinner, but aside from that there was no direct cost to ZNY. We took over the second floor of a restaurant, and the staff required to prepare food for and serve ~50 people from 12 pm - 6 pm on a Saturday, when the restaurant was open for business. We, essentially, cut the space available for him to serve customers who would have paid a LOT more per person to eat what we ate in half. Trust me, I've eaten there and it's a lot more expensive for a dinner than what we all paid per person for lunch AND dinner...for good reason...the food is EXCELLENT! With that in mind, when you're told that at 6 pm that the space is needed because a private event/party had been planned sometime between when you got the go ahead, had to set event dates and times with VATUSA/VATSIM/VA's, people coming in from out of town, controllers, etc. MONTHS ago and the date of the actual event...you leave when asked to do so. Yes, even if there are planes in the airspace. It's the courteous thing to do for someone who generously donated a space like that. I "understand" the frustration, but knowing what space was being used, how, and at what cost to the provider, and just in general, I don't agree with it. The event was 6 hrs long, ample time to fly in, fly out, fly around, and enjoy it. Matthew Kreilein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Otero Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:24 PM Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:24 PM Matthew, You and your crew need not to explain why you stopped ATC, especially when the time was clearly indicated . Even if you did not have to leave the room and just wanted to have some time for yourselves to socialize before going home - you do have homes and lives outside VATSIM, don't you?. The ungrateful tone that has become common around VATSIM - a community in which only one group has to qualify for their membership while the others enjoy the same benefits with no effort required and are usually the ones complaining - is well represented on this thread. Six hours of solid ATC is an excellent effort (not to mention the many days/months it took all of you to become controllers) and all should be thankfull that it took place. In RW, if you need a fuel stop, you plan to land before the FBO closes. For those who want full-time ATC (and the right to whine), get a PPL, rent/buy a plane and knock yourself out. Or join PilotEdge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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