Correct procedures for KLGA 31 Visual

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

Hi All!

 

I hope this is the right place to ask but I am stuck with a question.. I tried some difficult Visual Approaches (Expressway Visual KLGA for example) but I am really wondering what might be the correct way of flying this, because of several reasons:

-In the FMC, ther is no 'visual RWY31' option

-Of course, you must keep an eye on the expressway, but how do you keep your vertical speed managed? At this visual approach it is impossible to see the runway.. I heard a pilot told me to calculate the correct V/S but since there is no option for this visual approach in the FMC, you can not know the distance exactly.. And; do you need to program the ILS rwy 4 or ILS rwy 31 frequency? (Since you use the RWY4 course first..). Or in real life, do you use the PAPI lights instead?

 

I hope someone knows more about this

Yours Sincerely,

 

Thomas Krol

[Davor Kusec 990407]

Visual approaches are just that...visual. By definition, you rely a lot less on the instruments for such an approach. Visual approaches are usually hand flown in (sometimes the autopilot is used to manage the heading and/or altitude until a certain point on the approach).

As far as the FMC goes, the option to select would be the one that just simply said "RWY31" or "31" without the ILS /RNAV/VOR/etc., before the runway number.

I always plug in the localizer information when applicable, even when I fly a visual approach. PAPI lights are used when applicable also to manage the rate of descent.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

pretty much what Davor said. visual approaches are pretty much the first thing one should learn before the automation. it seems to be alien to a lot of folks online because they rely too much on the systems rather then just looking out the window.

 

if you go by the approach plate you should not lose visual of the runway during the entire approach. its not going to be in front of view, but off to the side so you will have to look to your side, but well within view of any aircraft cockpit, no 90 degree turns on this approach

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLGA/IAP/EXPRESSWAY+VISUAL+RWY+31

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

Thank you both for your reply!

I understand that maintaining visual (of course) sight with the runway is the primary guidance for the visual approach, but as we are in flight simulator, keeping an eye out to the left is still hard to do without messing up the V/S at the same time (And the PAPI lights are aligned with the runway so that might be hard to see during this visual approach..). I am wondering why there is no RNAV RNP approach like they did at the River Visual at DCA or at Kathmandu Nepal. That would make things easier for sure

 

But anyway thanks again, now I know how to program my FMC during the 31 approach to LGA !

[Davor Kusec 990407]

I suggest that you look up a module called "Track IR". It's a little expensive and certainly takes getting used to but I think it's worth it. It sort of moves the screen as you move your head with a sensor that is attached to your headset or a hat.

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

I suggest that you look up a module called "Track IR". It's a little expensive and certainly takes getting used to but I think it's worth it. It sort of moves the screen as you move your head with a sensor that is attached to your headset or a hat.

 

I will consider that, thanks for the hint!

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

if you have a webcam, there are also free face tracking programs you can try as well. not as great as trackIR is, but no special equipment required either, other then your webcam. they literally track the movement of your face instead of having to wear something on your head

[John Wiesenfeld]

When I was a teenager, I lived alongside the Long Island Expressway, right under the path of the Expressway Visual Approach and admired the skill of the pilots carrying out that landing. Having spoken to at least one r/w captain who has carried out the approach, the view out the left window makes it easier to fly than one would think given how challenging it is using a desktop sim.

 

The approach begins along the LGA R-225 radial to DIALS intersection at 5 DME. Cross DAILS @ or above 2500. From there turn right on a heading of 085 to parallel the LIE until you reach the edge of Flushing Meadow Park. Now begin a left 135 degree turn to land on rwy 31. All the while carefully gauge your altitude because you need to be around 500' as you reach the east shore of Flushing Bay. Or better yet watch

 

 

In the years that I have been controlling at VATSIM ZNY, I have seen one pilot successfully fly this approach, although in truth we rarely [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign 31 landings because of proximity of the airspace to KJFK. That fellow requested it and I happily complied.

 

Good luck, keep working on it, and visit with us to give it a try online. The magic words are "Direct DIALS. Cross DIALS at or above 2500. Cleared for the Visual Approach Runway 31."

 

Have fun,

 

John

 

PS The video shows the aircraft flying above the house where I lived at around 2:30.

 

PPS If you take a heading of 090 and then turn left on the west side of park, it may be a little easier because you can remain higher during the turn and it's not so hard to spot the runway. I think these crews have checkpoints established along the ground that they p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] over to make this a bit more reliable. Or maybe they're really very, very good.

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

The magic words are "Direct DIALS. Cross DIALS at or above 2500. Cleared for the Visual Approach Runway 31."

 

That would clear them for a visual approach to runway 31, sure, but if you wanted them to fly the procedure itself wouldn't it be "Cleared Expressway Visual Runway 31 Approach?"

 

"Cleared Visual Approach" authorizes less specific maneuvers to the landing runway than the charted procedure would. This might be intentional to give sim pilots more wiggle room, I'm just curious.

[John Wiesenfeld]

Thank you, yes. Poor proof reading on my part.

 

John

[Ira Robinson]

Try this link too. It gives a better view of the setup to the initial approach. You'll see the tanks as depicted on the charts where you are directed to make the first turn and with the better view you will get a better idea why you should be at 180 knots and done communicating with atc before you begin that turn.

 

 

 

Ira

[John Wiesenfeld]

Great catch. It appears that this approach was done using LNAV/VNAV. The FMS takes the turn wider to the east and crosses the park at 1,000. I have got to try this one again with the NGX. It sounds like the autopilot was disengaged around 200 feet.

 

John

[Ira Robinson]

Great catch. It appears that this approach was done using LNAV/VNAV. The FMS takes the turn wider to the east and crosses the park at 1,000. I have got to try this one again with the NGX. It sounds like the autopilot was disengaged around 200 feet.

 

John

 

Correct. The procedure has changed ever so slightly because Shea Stadium isn't there anymore and Citi Field was built next to it and it's a little taller as well. Remember when the aircraft flew directly over the ballpark? Well now the aircraft have to belly out a little further. It also means they have to be real slow and real low to complete the turn, not slide through it and still get lined up for final approach.

 

Ira

[Christopher Coon 1097126]

I fly this approach a lot. My FMS doesn't give VNAV guidance and I don't use track IR (just have snap views, but that's pretty useless for this because of the blind spots). My rule of thumb after crossing DIALS at 2,500 and 170-180 knots, I drop gear and descend at about 1,200 FPM no lower than 1,000 feet until starting the northbound turn. But that rate should put you right at 1,000 feet when you start the next turn. In that turn continue at that rate no lower than 500 feet until the final turn. For that final turn you need to experiment a bit and note a visual reference when to start your turn to line up properly. (For me it's when the "second inlet" hits the bottom of my view window). During the turn, shallow out a bit and descend to about 400. When you roll out lined up with the runway, you should be right on the glidepath.

 

It's a fun approach to fly, especially doing all the above in that somewhat steep descent while also trying to slow! I wish the controllers here would [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign it more often -- usually here they use the 31 localizer approach even in VMC and you have to specifically request it. (In real-world they use the expressway instead of the localizer in VMC because they can handle more arrivals that way).

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

Hi all!

Has been a while since i visited this topic but i gave myself an update;-) i saw the youtube film today where the lnav vnav was used apparently for the visual approach.. how is this even possible? In my fmc with the latest airac there is no option at all to program this in the fmc.. is it just the airline that developed this or do they have something we don't? And furthermore.. why would they use the autopilot for this since it is a visual approach (and not an rnav/gnss/rnp)? I mean, they should do it manually iguess..

 

What do you guys think? Would they program the approach in the fmc manually or would there be an option?

 

And @john when you will be controlling ZNY the next time, I will give the approach a try I really like challenges!

 

Regards, Thomas

[Bradley Grafelman]

(Perhaps slightly off-topic...)

 

And furthermore.. why would they use the autopilot for this since it is a visual approach (and not an rnav/gnss/rnp)? I mean, they should do it manually iguess..

Why is that? I would think a visual approach just dictates the weather conditions and visibility criteria. Pilots can't (yet?) fly with their eyes, so a "visual" approach says nothing about not utilizing an autopilot to lessen the workload of flying the approach.

 

Similarly, there's nothing that says you are required to use (or even have) an autopilot if cleared for an instrument approach (e.g. an ILS).

[John Wiesenfeld]

Any of the ZNY controllers certed for LGA approach ops will be happy to accommodate requests for the Expressway Visual, but usually this approach is only flown in solid VMC and with calm or NW winds. Still you can set your simulator weather that way and, traffic permitting, we'll work to fit you in. Unfortunately, not many pilots choose LGA for departures or arrivals many days, so traffic is usually light enough that taking you out of the normal flow shouldn't be a problem.

 

No controlling this week--on business travel.

 

 

John

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

(Perhaps slightly off-topic...)

 

And furthermore.. why would they use the autopilot for this since it is a visual approach (and not an rnav/gnss/rnp)? I mean, they should do it manually iguess..

Why is that? I would think a visual approach just dictates the weather conditions and visibility criteria. Pilots can't (yet?) fly with their eyes, so a "visual" approach says nothing about not utilizing an autopilot to lessen the workload of flying the approach.

 

Similarly, there's nothing that says you are required to use (or even have) an autopilot if cleared for an instrument approach (e.g. an ILS).

 

 

You are totally right of course, my bad. I just meant that the LGA 31 visual approach does not provide any instrument guidance that you can program in your fmc (there is no rnav option called 'expressway visual 31' available, at least in my database..). So my main question is how they have done this in the video; did the airline make a procedure for the fmc or did the pilots everything manually? (Selecting xxx heading, v/s xx ft per min etc, also a possibility although the first one would be better i think..)

[Sebastien Bartosz]

Some airlines have specific procedures. There is indeed an RNAV version of the Expressway 31.

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

Some airlines have specific procedures. There is indeed an RNAV version of the Expressway 31.

 

Yes that would make sense.. though strange that that one is not published on charts!

[Bradford Lee]

Well there is an ILS 31L at JFK. A "visual" approach is still an IFR procedure, it simply lets you fly your approach by using visual cues. A lot of airlines actually require the pilot to program in the ILS information as a backup in case visual conditions deteriorate during the approach. Besides, how's the ATC to know the difference between you hand-flying a visual approach on glideslope and flying an ILS down the same glideslope? It looks the same to us either way unless you're using Euroscope with a verticle profile display.

[Thomas Krol 1280929]

Well there is an ILS 31L at JFK. A "visual" approach is still an IFR procedure, it simply lets you fly your approach by using visual cues. A lot of airlines actually require the pilot to program in the ILS information as a backup in case visual conditions deteriorate during the approach. Besides, how's the ATC to know the difference between you hand-flying a visual approach on glideslope and flying an ILS down the same glideslope? It looks the same to us either way unless you're using Euroscope with a verticle profile display.

 

That is true for sure, but I believe there is actually a RNAV as well for the 13LR (i guess you meant those 'canarsie' approachs) besides the ILS for these runways, althoug a straight in approach never occurs. In the case of LGA, there is an ILS for 31, but not a published RNAV (strange?). Still the pilots are flying by LNAV VNAV mode on final so they must have had or a pre programmed IAP/STAR or they could have programmed it themselves by the use of fixes.. still a mystery to me

[Bradford Lee]

That is true for sure, but I believe there is actually a RNAV as well for the 13LR (i guess you meant those 'canarsie' approachs) besides the ILS for these runways, althoug a straight in approach never occurs. In the case of LGA, there is an ILS for 31, but not a published RNAV (strange?). Still the pilots are flying by LNAV VNAV mode on final so they must have had or a pre programmed IAP/STAR or they could have programmed it themselves by the use of fixes.. still a mystery to me

 

Yea, it's either hand-programmed or it is company-only charts that we the public can't get, like the Continental SIDs out of N90. There are plenty of procedures out there that we don't know about, including complete approaches, not just SIDs/STARs. Not sure what's so secret about a company-restricted procedure unless it's used to increase efficiency and turnaround time, so they don't want it getting out to their competitors...

[Bradley Grafelman]

Yea, it's either hand-programmed or it is company-only charts that we the public can't get

That just leaves the charts, then, since RNAV procedures (including RNAV Visual Approaches) can't legally be "hand-programmed":

 

The RVFP must be coded in the aircraft RNAV system database and retrievable by

name (i.e., line-selectable). Pilots are not authorized to build these procedures manually.

 

Not sure what's so secret about a company-restricted procedure unless it's used to increase efficiency and turnaround time, so they don't want it getting out to their competitors...

I'd be surprised if that is a major reason why the charts aren't available... but they definitely aren't "public" procedures according to the FAA. See these minutes from a (somewhat recent) meeting regarding the topic.