Thoughts about VAs and quest for Holy Grail...

[Nikos Stournaras 892258]

Actually the "Holy Grail" is a VA that would suit most people needs, provided they want the "golden" amount realism to fit their real lives and to maximize the entertainment of their FS experience.

 

So, been in FS for much time I have joined and quit several VAs.

In some cases I found VAs in a very free-style allowing online and offline flights, a huge timetable, numerous hubs etc. This clustered their roster so much that it was rare to find another pilot flying online at the same time, in the same area. Not to mention the absolute absence of group flights and fly-ins.

 

On the other hand there are VAs trying to be so realistic that they end up being realistically unrealistic meaning far from being compatible with someones real life. We are not real life pilots, at least not in FS. Our real lives involve a job, families, loved people, other hobbies, loss of interest in FS for some time, bad times... Asking for x flights per month can be easily in contrast with real life. People should be allowed to be away when their lives dictate so and come back when they can. Their account could be suspended but easily reactivated when they are back.

 

There are ranking systems requiring 150 hours in order to make that 747 available. Even if someone can fly 5 hours per month, every month, it would take 2.5 years!!! People, it is a hobby not a life project...

In addition, VATSIM provides some flexibility like 4x time compression if and when the situation allows it, either in uncontrolled airspace without traffic or after a controller's approval and there's a good reason for that. So, dear VA owners, think a moment. How many people can sit for 10 hours before their PC to complete a trans Atlantic flight? Maybe you should also allow that 2x or 4x as VATSIM does.

 

Last but not least. I tried recently to join a VA. It was a well known one following a real airline's operations and I didn't apply because the application form asked me to choose my callsign in the VA. So far so good and I did it, only to get a message that the callsign already exists. No check was available to let me know beforehand or suggest an alternative, available callsigns. Also, no form is accepted with an empty callsign field, to be given by the VA. How am I supposed to know what is available when their roster is sorted only by hours and not by callsign? Should I sit down, contact them before I even get to apply, to be given a callsign via mail when all VAs do that automatically? Not to mention about contact points in their home page. Not to mention about requirements described anywhere... Guys, get serious. If the applicant has to spend more than 5 minutes to apply once he/she has decided so, you do something wrong...

 

Sorry for the long message.

[Patrik Yngver]

Many valid points Nikos!

 

I'm agreeing with you that it's hard to find "the perfect online Flightsim experience", mainly because there are so many definitions of that. This forum is filled with people complaining/having thoughts on too much or too little activity, I need not go into the details here, but there are several "hot" discussions on this board. I do welcome them, it is good that every member gets a chance to tell his or her view on things, however the rules by VATSIM are set as close to the common ground in my opinion, taking into account requests from people that donate infrastructure to our great network.

 

There are some very hardcore VAs out there, but, for a simmer that seeks that, why souldn't it be available? I know people that get up at 4AM to fly a flight in real time on the "proper" schedule according to the real world, if that makes that member happy, let it be that way.

 

I myself do fly a lot, as I have a job that requires some weekend and evening work, but I can work remotely from home and hence bring a long haul up that I keep an eye on while working, that suits my needs and I never fly any other sim speed than 1x, again that's how I like to do it and I have no problem if someone feels otherwise, please go at any sim speed that the rules allow, but myself I just select a shorter flight if my time is limited

 

I don't like the requirements to fly X hours each month or to fly a certain category of aircraft for X hours before moving on to the next, so I have a very small VA with some friends that allow for us to fly as freely as we wish, one of those you mention in the beginning, "spread out". Not everyone's cup of tea, but certainly mine.

 

I think what you are searching for is your perfect VA, with conditions that suit you and I'm sure there is one out there! The process of finding one can be time consuming for sure, so some sort of realism/requirement scale would perhaps aid many members in selecting their VA. I'm fairly certain few would choose to join ours, but we would never bar someone from joining, should they want to.

 

I wish you the best of luck in finding your holy grail! See you in the skies of VATSIM!

[Nikos Stournaras 892258]

Basically, yes... I am actually describe my Holy Grail, although I am sure it would not be just mine. Of course I agree with you that everything is needed since everything is liked by someone. I believe though what I describe looks more than a group of people organizing group flights and inviting more people to fly with them, with all the flexibility, the team atmosphere and the realism in flying, rather than a VA.

[Christopher Liu]

Actually the "Holy Grail" is a VA that would suit most people needs, provided they want the "golden" amount realism to fit their real lives and to maximize the entertainment of their FS experience.

I think that http://www.viaintercity.com could be the holy grail airline you are looking for! I've tried to address all the points you mentioned:

a huge timetable, numerous hubs etc. This clustered their roster so much that it was rare to find another pilot flying online at the same time, in the same area

• 4 hubs (Birmingham, Edinburgh, London City and Düsseldorf) but they're close together and routes are short, so pilots aren't spread out

far from being compatible with someones real life... Asking for x flights per month can be easily in contrast with real life.

• Intercity require 1 flight every 60 days to remain active; flights are between 40 mins and 2 hrs, so they will fit in with busy lifestyles easily.

People should be allowed to be away when their lives dictate so and come back when they can. Their account could be suspended but easily reactivated when they are back.

• If you can't fly once every 60 days, you are made inactive for an additional 90 days, and if you a log a flight during that time you are automatically reactivated. Or you can apply for leave, up to 180 days per year.

There are ranking systems requiring 150 hours in order to make that 747 available

• The entire fleet is available to all pilots from the start

How many people can sit for 10 hours before their PC to complete a trans Atlantic flight? Maybe you should also allow that 2x or 4x as VATSIM does.

• Intercity is shorthaul only, the average flight time is about 1 hr 15 min so time compression/acceleration is not required, although it is permitted.

If the applicant has to spend more than 5 minutes to apply once he/she has decided so, you do something wrong...

• There is a 20 question multiple choice exam, but most applicants complete it within 10 minutes and then fill in the short application form.

I tried recently to join a VA...the application form asked me to choose my callsign in the VA. So far so good and I did it, only to get a message that the callsign already exists.

• Callsigns are based on the flight number in the schedule, just like a real airline. We automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign a crew/pilot ID when a pilot application is accepted. Edited September 22, 2014 at 07:46 PM by Guest

[Camden Bruno]

"Holy Grail" is a VA that would suit most people needs, provided they want the "golden" amount realism to fit their real lives and to maximize the entertainment of their FS experience.

Check out Virtual Blue (Virtual jetBlue) http://www.flyvblue.org

 

very free-style allowing online and offline flights, a huge timetable, numerous hubs etc. This clustered their roster so much that it was rare to find another pilot flying online at the same time, in the same area. Not to mention the absolute absence of group flights and fly-ins.

We allow manual PIREPs via VATSIM or offline flights using our bluCARS system or FSP[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers. Additionally, we have a very large scheduling system that syncs with real-world jetBlue's schedules as well as all of our codeshare airlines (a list of codeshares can be viewed on the About Us section of our website). Our hubs consist of the real-world jetBlue hubs (New York, Boston, Long Beach, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, and San Juan). We often get group flights together, usually randomly, when hanging out in our TeamSpeak server. Lastly, regarding events, we promote VATSIM events in accordance with our schedules and offer 2 bonus hours for participation.

 

VAs trying to be so realistic that they end up being realistically unrealistic

Agreed, some VA's can take it too far. You're right! This the virtual world and we have real-world obligations that come first. Virtual Blue understands this, hence our 1 flight per calendar month policy.

 

ranking systems

Our ranks consist of Category I through Category IV pilots. The only strict policy in place is that Category I pilots (0-30 hours) cannot participate in codeshare flights. Other than that, you are free to access all of our fleet and routes from the start.

 

Maybe you should also allow that 2x or 4x as VATSIM does.

We only allow 1x simulation rate (normal rate), however, this usually is not a problem as our routes are very flexible. We have flights as short as 20 minutes and as long as 6 hours. You get to choose how long you'd like your flight to be!

 

application form

Our application process is short and sweet. We have pilots that are entirely new to flight simulation and aviation overall. And then we have pilots that are extremely experienced with real-world experience and everything in between. No quizzes, tests, etc. We aim to help our new pilots as much as they would like. Whether it be a quick question or if they would like full-on training sessions with one of our airline instructors to get to know an aircraft before their first flight. We are here to help our pilots, we'd like to have them interested rather than deter them by instantly [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning exams and additional work.

 

_______________________________________

 

I hope this helps and hope I have sparked your interest in Virtual Blue. Let us know if you have any questions, comments, concerns, or suggestions and we hope to see your application soon,

[Nikos Stournaras 892258]

Thank you gentlemen for your suggestions. For the time being I consider giving a try to my old VA (Olympic Airways Virtual), as a second life. I will keep your suggestions for the future though.

[Michael Tedor 1261371]

Nikos, like you I am looking for a new VA, and I have hit some pretty crazy things. The VA I fly for is closing. I have 250 flights and 470 hours in the last year. I fly the PMDG 737 and 777 as well as the Majestic Q-400. I live in the Chicago area. I would like to find a VA that is not overly hung up on realism, has more than 10-15 people flying a month, and is not psycho about realism and ranks. Easy to find? One VA had all three planes, a website with a map, pilots of the month and a newsletter. I emailed the owner and got a nice response. On the website's live map I noticed one of their planes was landing at KSAT, so I looked at VATMAP on my I-pad... no plane. Then I looked at their top 5 pilots that month on vataware and vatstats... no pilots listed or no flights listed for them. It was all smoke and mirrors. Several of the airlines I checked looked good on their website or Facebook. They had new recruits listed and pilot hours each month shown, but when I searched to make sure they were legitimate nothing showed on vataware or vatstats. How crazy is that? When I looked at app lications I applied at one and received an email back that said "Hi"... nothing else, just "Hi". I think it was from them. Another one was a one page test that wouldn't "submit". Another one that I saw had an essay. I guess if you couldn't spell you couldn't join. Meanwhile, I will continue to look for a VA that flies at least two of my three planes, doesn't take a PIREP away if I descend at 635 fpm, and actually really has people flying in the virtual skies. Good luck with your search.

[Michael Ionas 839902]

Let me try and put the perspective of a VA into the picture. A VA is usually an non profit organization where the people running it spend lots of hours of their personal free time to enhance the virtual flying experience of their members. In my case I choose to do it for Olympic Air Virtual and I am blessed to be surrounded by a great team of people that love their roles and do their absolute best to enhance the virtual careers of our members. We have spend years developing our own custom made dispatch office and custom made ACARS (we do not like ready-made solutions), but always our main goal have been to create a friendly atmosphere where members can have an as realistic or casual virtual career as they wish. We host our own TeamSpeak server where members can meet to exchange views, get trained, solve problems, make casual conversation or even organize a spontaneous group flight.

 

So are we the perfect VA? Of course not. We do make mistakes and one pilot's holy grail will probably be another's nemesis and as such it is impossible to keep everybody happy. We have a certain set of operating principles but we are always willing to discuss and improve; thus we always encourage comments, suggestions and even criticism.

 

Now let me discuss specific issues.

 

In some cases I found VAs in a very free-style allowing online and offline flights, a huge timetable, numerous hubs etc. This clustered their roster so much that it was rare to find another pilot flying online at the same time, in the same area. Not to mention the absolute absence of group flights and fly-ins.

In OAV's case we do offer a huge timetable through 6 divisions with different roles and we fly all over the world. However through TeamSpeak you will always find spontaneous organized group flights and specific days dedicated to group flights or tours where 10-30 pilots form a "train" of aircraft. We only allow online flying, however if it does happen to have an offline flight out of 10 online for whatever reason we will not take your head..

 

Asking for x flights per month can be easily in contrast with real life. People should be allowed to be away when their lives dictate so and come back when they can. Their account could be suspended but easily reactivated when they are back.

Although OAV does ask x flights for a period of months, as long as you participate, we are flexible (we will not suspend someone because he did not meet his goal of minimum flights, only if he disappears without word). We also offer annual leaves for people that need to be absent for a significant period of time. As long as you communicate it we will find a formula. We will always also provide a fair written warning in advance before proceeding to any action.

 

And allow me to bring another problem VAs are facing that has been discussed many times in this forum. There is a great number of pilots that just enroll in a VA and never show up again. As such we are trying to discourage such pilots from enrolling by employing various methods.

 

There are ranking systems requiring 150 hours in order to make that 747 available. Even if someone can fly 5 hours per month, every month, it would take 2.5 years!!! People, it is a hobby not a life project...

OAV does have such a ranking system. It is a way to reward pilots for their flying hours and test their commitment. We do accept previous experience, but the ranking system is one of the non negotiable rules of our VA.

 

In addition, VATSIM provides some flexibility like 4x time compression if and when the situation allows it, either in uncontrolled airspace without traffic or after a controller's approval and there's a good reason for that. So, dear VA owners, think a moment. How many people can sit for 10 hours before their PC to complete a trans Atlantic flight? Maybe you should also allow that 2x or 4x as VATSIM does.

OAV only allows 1x flights. You will be surprised at how many people do fly long haul flights in real time. It is not for everyone and again it is a non negotiable rule of our VA.

 

Last but not least. I tried recently to join a VA. It was a well known one following a real airline's operations and I didn't apply because the application form asked me to choose my callsign in the VA. So far so good and I did it, only to get a message that the callsign already exists. No check was available to let me know beforehand or suggest an alternative, available callsigns. Also, no form is accepted with an empty callsign field, to be given by the VA. How am I supposed to know what is available when their roster is sorted only by hours and not by callsign? Should I sit down, contact them before I even get to apply, to be given a callsign via mail when all VAs do that automatically? Not to mention about contact points in their home page. Not to mention about requirements described anywhere... Guys, get serious. If the applicant has to spend more than 5 minutes to apply once he/she has decided so, you do something wrong...

OAV does ask such information in the application form. Perhaps the title is misleading and we should change it to suggested callsign or preferred callsign and is one the things I mentioned in the beginning of this post. We are not perfect but we do try to improve. We have a database of pilots since 2003 - one can only imagine the size of this db since we do not delete anybody's records/logbook - and as such a callsign can be owned by many pilots, of whom all but one are retired. We can implement a check, but as I mentioned earlier this is a voluntary organization and there is not always time to improve things on the fly as we also have real lives . But the comment is noted for future implementation.

 

Meanwhile, I will continue to look for a VA that flies at least two of my three planes, doesn't take a PIREP away if I descend at 635 fpm, and actually really has people flying in the virtual skies.

OAV does have real people flying and we definitively do not take heads for a bad landing..

 

Closing - and sorry for my long message - I would like to state that we are who we are and although we do try to keep most members happy it is impossible to appeal to everyone. But we try. Whether we succeed or not is up to our roster of pilots to decide..

Edited October 10, 2014 at 02:31 PM by Guest

[Christopher Liu]

I feel the English idiom "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is appropriate here

 

Just to add to what I posted earlier, Intercity is releasing their Autumn/Winter schedule at the end of October which will add 111 flights (total now 1040 flights per day) and 30 Airbus A320s (in addition to 73x Q400 and 21x JS41).

 

Also, Intercity don't remove pilots without warning, they are always e-mailed 21 days before, so they have 3 weeks to request a Leave of Absence (LoA) or log a flight. Any pilot who is removed can have all their Intercity records restored by request.

[Nikos Stournaras 892258]

Micheal Ionas, if you check OAV's roster you will find out that I have already joined OAV, actually re-joined. Although 2x, 4x would be a nice-to-have thing, 1x is something I could live with, since I can fly for 5-6 hours. Indeed the x flights per period is quite flexible in OAV and I know there is even more flexibility so no problem either. I like the fact that you fly only in VATSIM so there are no thousands of hours gathered in a couple months. OAV's promotional requirements were not an issue either as I already held (since my first OAV life) the rank of Senior Captain. Add to this my memories from real Olympic as a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger and virtual Olympic as a pilot since I first joined back in 2004 and you have the whole image of why I re-joined.

 

So, although there are no thoughts of leaving OAV, I am still looking for is a second which would enhance my options of where to fly and with what aircraft and for that I would like one to fly only online (VATSIM for me), where I would be able to fly the big birds, verifying my VATSIM hours which are enough for a B744 according to almost all VAs, I believe and having that flexibility of flying frequency. That's it. If someone knows something drop me a line. I prefer Europe but that's not a must-have.

 

I recently contacted a few. Some replied after more than a week, some did not reply at all and one, big one, had all docomeentation and forums in French... Sorry guys but I can't speak French fluently.

[Mark Wolpert]

Nikos, like you I am looking for a new VA, and I have hit some pretty crazy things. The VA I fly for is closing. I have 250 flights and 470 hours in the last year. I fly the PMDG 737 and 777 as well as the Majestic Q-400. I live in the Chicago area. I would like to find a VA that is not overly hung up on realism, has more than 10-15 people flying a month, and is not psycho about realism and ranks. Easy to find? One VA had all three planes, a website with a map, pilots of the month and a newsletter. I emailed the owner and got a nice response. On the website's live map I noticed one of their planes was landing at KSAT, so I looked at VATMAP on my I-pad... no plane. Then I looked at their top 5 pilots that month on vataware and vatstats... no pilots listed or no flights listed for them. It was all smoke and mirrors. Several of the airlines I checked looked good on their website or Facebook. They had new recruits listed and pilot hours each month shown, but when I searched to make sure they were legitimate nothing showed on vataware or vatstats. How crazy is that? When I looked at app lications I applied at one and received an email back that said "Hi"... nothing else, just "Hi". I think it was from them. Another one was a one page test that wouldn't "submit". Another one that I saw had an essay. I guess if you couldn't spell you couldn't join. Meanwhile, I will continue to look for a VA that flies at least two of my three planes, doesn't take a PIREP away if I descend at 635 fpm, and actually really has people flying in the virtual skies. Good luck with your search.

 

 

Flying Tigers Group may be something for you to look at. They basically amalgamate many airlines but use a data source that finds real world schedules. You can fly any aircraft for any airline from day one....sorry no carry over hours...(but you sign up for one....as an example I am officially signed up to United but tend almost any other airline but United). Routes cover almost every imaginable aircraft and route around the world....and they have freighter and historic schedules. You have to set your sim to the departure time of the real world flight and there is an ACARS system to track everything. http://www.flyingtigersgroup.org

btw, I just checked the schedules and there are 800 flights into and out of KORD.

[Nikos Stournaras 892258]

Mark, in fact I was a member of FTG Air France years ago and it was just like pickup a flight, do the flight, submit a pirep, admire your hours on a website. No interaction at all. I never felt part of a team because there is no team. FTG is only a page with flights and flight logs. Besides, I checked again their site days ago and just now once more. When a site loads and on top of the page you see error messages in 5-6 lines and below the rest of the page, for many days now... Something goes wrong.