Evan Mrozinski 1236460 Posted February 20, 2015 at 06:21 AM Posted February 20, 2015 at 06:21 AM What is the policy, if any, for controlling at a military airfield? Is there any special training required? Any special certifications? S2 at http://www.zlcartcc.com v2Lt. at http://www.vusaf.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Harrison Posted February 20, 2015 at 10:50 AM Posted February 20, 2015 at 10:50 AM I think you would need to identify which ARTCC it is in and then look at their LOAs. Sean C1/O P3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 20, 2015 at 11:38 AM Posted February 20, 2015 at 11:38 AM You are required to have the appropriate rating for the position you are controlling. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Hansson Posted February 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM Posted February 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM As a base, you need to have the rating for the positon. All ARTCCs in US also require you to either be a home controller or visiting controller with them. Based on the LOA, regular ARTCC controllers may or may not control the miltary fields. According to some of the LOAs, military fields are restricted to controllers in the military organization (vUSN, vUSAF, etc). This often depends on if the field is a joint civilian/military field (eg. Honolulu/Hickam) or military-only (eg. Oceana). In all cases, you will need to check the local LOA in the ARTCC/FIR where you would be interested in controlling. Tomas Hansson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted February 20, 2015 at 06:29 PM Posted February 20, 2015 at 06:29 PM To put a point on it there is nothing special about a mil airport in VATSIM All airports within a facility's boundaries are owned by that facility regardless of mil or civil configuration. You must be a recognized and rated controller for that facility (perm or visitor) and have authorization from them to open an airport. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Mrozinski 1236460 Posted February 20, 2015 at 08:28 PM Author Posted February 20, 2015 at 08:28 PM So as an S2 controller in the ZLC ARTCC (Salt Lake City) I can then control TWR at KHIF if I choose to, since I have not seen anywhere in any of my ARTCC's docomeents stating that say I can't or that there are any special requirements. S2 at http://www.zlcartcc.com v2Lt. at http://www.vusaf.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted February 20, 2015 at 08:35 PM Posted February 20, 2015 at 08:35 PM should be able to, check any LOA's and policies they have. if its not listed, then yep it should be well within any rated controllers ability to control there. when in doubt, ask your ARTCC staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted February 21, 2015 at 01:56 AM Posted February 21, 2015 at 01:56 AM should be able to, check any LOA's and policies they have. if its not listed, then yep it should be well within any rated controllers ability to control there. when in doubt, ask your ARTCC staff No. Refer to Kyle Ramsey's comment. To put a point on it there is nothing special about a mil airport in VATSIM All airports within a facility's boundaries are owned by that facility regardless of mil or civil configuration. You must be a recognized and rated controller for that facility (perm or visitor) and have authorization from them to open an airport. To put it simply.. if you are an S2 and good to go for minor local control, you can control ANY non-major field in the ARTCC that has a tower on it. An LOA with vUSN/VUSAF, etc. cannot/should not restrict the ability for an S2 to open "Some Tower" regardless of civil or military affiliation in the real world. From my understanding of the GRP, you cannot restrict the opening of a legitimate tower by anyone properly rated unless it is a major field and they have yet to obtain the major endorsement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted February 21, 2015 at 02:48 AM Posted February 21, 2015 at 02:48 AM pretty much what i was saying lol didnt say it was restricted, IE check those LOA's & policies to see if they have any specific information on how the ARTCC treats them. some places i remember used to do military endorsements, i think that was phased out for the most part years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted February 21, 2015 at 07:45 AM Posted February 21, 2015 at 07:45 AM pretty much what i was saying lol didnt say it was restricted, IE check those LOA's & policies to see if they have any specific information on how the ARTCC treats them. some places i remember used to do military endorsements, i think that was phased out for the most part years ago I don't think you are understanding me, then. You cannot have restrictions unless it is a major. I know of zero military airports in the US that are cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ified as major. Your post makes it sound like a certified controller has to check if they are restricted but under the GRP they cannot be unless major. The military airports don't have traffic levels to warrant that. Therefore they are no different then that cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or D minor next door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Grafelman Posted February 21, 2015 at 08:08 AM Posted February 21, 2015 at 08:08 AM You cannot have restrictions unless it is a major. For every rule, there is an exception. For example, ZLA's R-2508 Complex LOA designates some facilities as "military-only" and that "ZLA controllers shall not be authorized to man 'military-only' facilities." Sure, one can argue that the GRP came after that agreement's time... but it's unlikely the reason behind its creation changed. For example, I, as a C1 controller fully trained for LAX_CTR (and all civilian facilities below it), would very likely be ill-equipped to provide a reasonable level of service vSOA pilots would likely expect - thus by controlling that facility I would be engaging in an "action or conduct which blocks, interferes with or otherwise prevents ... other ... individuals from ... enjoying the VATSIM.net network." Since doing otherwise would thus, IMHO, be a breach of CoR §6.03©, I gladly abide by that LOA with a "radar services terminated, change to tactical frequency approved; come up this frequency one minute prior to exit of the MOA" (or similar, depending upon the facility/airspace/etc.). Pilots can't engage in military operations without membership from a recognized vSOA organization; why shouldn't there be a similar concept for controlling certain military facilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted February 21, 2015 at 08:41 AM Posted February 21, 2015 at 08:41 AM You cannot have restrictions unless it is a major. For every rule, there is an exception. For example, ZLA's R-2508 Complex LOA designates some facilities as "military-only" and that "ZLA controllers shall not be authorized to man 'military-only' facilities." Sure, one can argue that the GRP came after that agreement's time... but it's unlikely the reason behind its creation changed. For example, I, as a C1 controller fully trained for LAX_CTR (and all civilian facilities below it), would very likely be ill-equipped to provide a reasonable level of service vSOA pilots would likely expect - thus by controlling that facility I would be engaging in an "action or conduct which blocks, interferes with or otherwise prevents ... other ... individuals from ... enjoying the VATSIM.net network." Since doing otherwise would thus, IMHO, be a breach of CoR §6.03©, I gladly abide by that LOA with a "radar services terminated, change to tactical frequency approved; come up this frequency one minute prior to exit of the MOA" (or similar, depending upon the facility/airspace/etc.). Pilots can't engage in military operations without membership from a recognized vSOA organization; why shouldn't there be a similar concept for controlling certain military facilities? Just because ZLA has that policy on its books doesn't make it correct or a valid exemption. While one can argue it "interferes" with the enjoyment of the network, that's not really a valid excuse. The actions at a military only tower versus a civilian tower do not differ that greatly. If the exception were to be desirable, a suggestion can be submitted to the EC to be included in the GRP. But technically ZLA cannot stop someone from working a military airport as long as they hold the GRP required ratings. ZLA has listed an unenforceable rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Mrozinski 1236460 Posted February 21, 2015 at 10:54 AM Author Posted February 21, 2015 at 10:54 AM Pilots can't engage in military operations without membership from a recognized vSOA organization; why shouldn't there be a similar concept for controlling certain military facilities? Ok well then by that logic, I am not only a member of the ZLC ARTCC but I am also a member of the vUSAF which is a recognized vSOA organization. So does that make it acceptable for me to do so then? S2 at http://www.zlcartcc.com v2Lt. at http://www.vusaf.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 21, 2015 at 01:48 PM Posted February 21, 2015 at 01:48 PM Yes, you can work the position. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Ramsey 810181 Posted February 21, 2015 at 03:47 PM Posted February 21, 2015 at 03:47 PM Pilots can't engage in military operations without membership from a recognized vSOA organization; why shouldn't there be a similar concept for controlling certain military facilities? Ok well then by that logic, I am not only a member of the ZLC ARTCC but I am also a member of the vUSAF which is a recognized vSOA organization. So does that make it acceptable for me to do so then? That is flawed logic. Being a member of a vSOA, but not operating within a signed and approved LOA with the local facility, means being a member of a vSOA gives you no additional privileges at all for that facility. There is no vSOA equal in the controlling side at all but there is a similar concept for controlling certain facilities, its called the GRP and VCP. It is acceptable if you are a rated controller on the roster for that facility and that airport is not otherwise restricted (a major). Period. Kyle Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted February 21, 2015 at 04:02 PM Posted February 21, 2015 at 04:02 PM It is acceptable if you are a rated controller on the roster for that facility and that airport is not otherwise restricted (a major). Period. This is what I'm trying to say Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Mrozinski 1236460 Posted February 21, 2015 at 04:28 PM Author Posted February 21, 2015 at 04:28 PM OK sounds good then. Thanks guys! S2 at http://www.zlcartcc.com v2Lt. at http://www.vusaf.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Harrison Posted October 3, 2016 at 08:50 AM Posted October 3, 2016 at 08:50 AM I am a VATPAC member looking to do some Military Airfield controlling in the CONUS. I am C1/O rated, and at this stage do not wish to relinquish my home region, so looking for as much exposure to Military Airfields as possible as a visiting controller. I have had over 3000hrs of flight with VSOAs (MIL). 1. Do any ARTCCs have joint rosters with neighbouring ARTCCs? Given the CONUS ARTCCs appear quite small it would be good to extend out. 2. If there is no way of providing service in multiple ARTCCs, which ARTCC has the most active/most facilities for Military? In short I'd like to offer my hours of ATC to support military traffic at facilities. Sean C1/O P3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1275389 Posted October 3, 2016 at 11:11 AM Posted October 3, 2016 at 11:11 AM 1) Not to my knowledge. You'd have to visit mulitple places. There are some LOAs that may let you control in multiple areas if you are part of a certain military organization. 2) Not really. Not many ARTCCs have anyone that actively controls military fields. Usually the only time you would get military service is if someone's working top down. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted October 3, 2016 at 01:10 PM Posted October 3, 2016 at 01:10 PM the only 3 places i know of that get regular military traffic online are ZJX, ZLA, and ZOA other then that, you may be doing a lot of waiting around working zero traffic. best to coordinate with the local vSOA's when planning to control at some fields so you know if anyones coming or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Harrison Posted October 3, 2016 at 07:57 PM Posted October 3, 2016 at 07:57 PM ZDC have advised that I need to talk to vUSN to control at KNTU NAS Oceana..... I don't understand that. Sean C1/O P3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted October 3, 2016 at 09:42 PM Posted October 3, 2016 at 09:42 PM ZDC have advised that I need to talk to vUSN to control at KNTU NAS Oceana..... I don't understand that. We have an LOA with them for them to control that field. Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted October 4, 2016 at 06:48 AM Posted October 4, 2016 at 06:48 AM at one time, vUSAF also basically had its own ARTCC for controlling various fields with LOA's. they handled all the training etc... instead of the local ARTCC, dont think they still do that, but vUSN is one that still has an ATC program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Harrison Posted October 4, 2016 at 07:57 AM Posted October 4, 2016 at 07:57 AM So I need to find a VSOA that has ATC to be able to control at KNTU and probably others. I think I'll stay where I am. Sean C1/O P3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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