Ed Callan 812021 Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:48 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:48 PM How do we handle operations above FL600 both military and civilian? Ed Callan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Horan 901577 Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:50 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:50 PM From a pilots perspective, or an ATC? I don't touch flights above my control; and pilots should not have to contact ATC when up that high, its outside of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace Matt www.vatsim.net/prc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andras Kiss 888081 Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:56 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 10:56 PM How do we handle operations above FL600 ...civilian? Ed Callan What civilian aircraft can go above that besides stuff like spaceship one? (was that even under ATC control?) Andras Kiss NYARTCC Controller 3, NYARTCC Mentor NYARTCC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istant Webmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Hare 907837 Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:02 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:02 PM How do we handle operations above FL600 ...civilian? Ed Callan What civilian aircraft can go above that besides stuff like spaceship one? (was that even under ATC control?) Government surplus Blackbirds. They are a dime a dozen on EBAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Horan 901577 Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:11 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:11 PM LOL Matt www.vatsim.net/prc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:11 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:11 PM Government surplus Blackbirds. They are a dime a dozen on EBAY And if only the fuel and maintenance costs weren't so high, I'd fly one to work every day. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:13 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:13 PM Yeah, all that fuel seaping out onto the tarmac, before you even take off, sure is expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Kolin Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:47 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:47 PM Government surplus Blackbirds. They are a dime a dozen on EBAY A surplus U-2S or TR-1 should do the trick, for a lot less. If you can get an RB-57F that will also bust FL600, but I hear the wings have a propensity to fall off.... Cheers! Luke ... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts. ... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Meyer 944876 Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:53 PM Posted March 24, 2006 at 11:53 PM And if only the fuel and maintenance costs weren't so high, I'd fly one to work every day. That would be a sight to see. I'd love to do that, although my five minute walk to work would make it kind of pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Callan 812021 Posted March 25, 2006 at 02:21 PM Author Posted March 25, 2006 at 02:21 PM Thanx for all the humor but seriously from ATC's point of view...How do we handle this....btw there are civilian U2's (from NASA) that do go above FL600 and obviously SR71's too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward McCoy 904185 Posted March 25, 2006 at 02:29 PM Posted March 25, 2006 at 02:29 PM Im sure there are a million answers from different people. My view is that atleast in the US, ARTCC shelving stops at 600. Then discontinue control up there. If they keep asking for control, tell them to get their @sses below 600 or they get nada. Edward J. McCoy Albuquerque ARTCC DATM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Sykes 852946 Posted March 25, 2006 at 04:05 PM Posted March 25, 2006 at 04:05 PM In real life (in the USA at least), airspace above FL600 is controlled by the military -- it's Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E so IFR aircraft are subject to ATC; it's not "uncontrolled airspace" as many seem to think. There are procedures to get aircraft up to their [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned flight levels (which are usually somewhat secret and coded) and handed off to the military controllers. On VATSIM, since those controllers are not online, you would handle it just like any other instance in which aircraft are leaving your airspace and the adjacent controller isn't on, except for the direction of departure: "leaving my airspace vertically, radar services terminated, frequency change approved." When the aircraft wants to return to Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace it will contact the appropriate center controller and be radar identified, and the flight continues normally. Marc Sykes Toronto ACC Trainee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Callan 812021 Posted March 25, 2006 at 06:42 PM Author Posted March 25, 2006 at 06:42 PM That is incorrect...I am a retired r/w atc and I controlled many U2's (both civilian and military) and SR71's above fl600......The airspace above fl600 is not controlled by the military... if you check your altitude limit buttons on the asrc filter key you will see fl306 to 999....if vatsim stops at fl600 then why is that there....as I have read in the 7110.65 so far.....vertical separation is 5000' (not sure about lateral separation) and even thought the atp refers to military operations I believe thois shou;d be used for both military and civilian a/c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Shore 899874 Posted March 25, 2006 at 06:57 PM Posted March 25, 2006 at 06:57 PM How do we handle operations above FL600 ...civilian? Ed Callan What civilian aircraft can go above that besides stuff like spaceship one? (was that even under ATC control?) . Hello Ed, I've modified Austin Meyer's X-30 National Aero Space Plane and I changed the name to the ' Aurora '. I regularly fly on VATSIM and I do fly above FL600. The Aurora is an American and a Canadian designed Civilian Aerospace plane. Max Altitude is 400,000' and Max Airspeed is Mach 40+ I do have the ability to fly around the world in less than one hour. Only, qualified California Airlines and Air North West Pilots are allowed to fly the Aurora. I have advised Richard Jenkins ( President of VATSIM.net ) about the Aurora. Cheers, Randall Shore Commercial Senior Flight Captain Aircraft / Aerospace Plane Developer California Airlines http://www.californiaair.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Wollenberg 810243 Posted March 25, 2006 at 07:03 PM Posted March 25, 2006 at 07:03 PM Trivia for any interested... Before they were decommissioned, back when I was a trainee at the real-life ZLA, I got to see how the old SR-71's were handled IRL. Contrary to what some are suggesting here, when the planes left the vertical limits of ZLA's airspace, the planes weren't told to "contact unicom", and are not automatically VFR. In fact, there IS a facility responsible for providing IFR services to flights above 600 - it's just not one of the normal ARTCC's. When we had an SR-71 flight start to climb out, we had to effect a manual handoff of the flight to a controller located at some military base (I think it was in Illinois somewhere). I understand that his sector was basically "all the CONUS airspace above FL600". He would advise us what altitude to clear the a/c up to (I could tell you what altitude that was, but it was cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ified, and until I hear otherwise, I'm not telling). We would then use a system of codes to tell the a/c to climb up to that altitude, and then tell him to contact that controller. Similarly, when a SR-71 was going to descend back down into ZLA airspace, that controller would, IIRC, contact us by telephone and again perform a manual handoff back the other way. The "Big Sky Theory" states that there's not much chance of two ABV600 aircraft hitting, but they still get tracked nevertheless. Additional trivia: When filing a FP for an SR-71, the altitude block on the flight plan simply reads ABV600. The speed on the data tag, as well as the flight plan should read: SC, for "Speed Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ified". Jeff Clark Bryan Wollenberg ZLA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javier Larroulet Posted March 25, 2006 at 09:14 PM Posted March 25, 2006 at 09:14 PM I doubdt however that any civilian transport above FL600 (are there any?.. I now the CONC cruised around FL540 but I don't know if it ever go higher) would have to contact that very same controller Javier Larroulet (C3) - Chile vACC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Callan 812021 Posted March 25, 2006 at 09:22 PM Author Posted March 25, 2006 at 09:22 PM 7110.65 para 9-2-13. covers operations above FL600. Even thought it sez Military the same should also aplly to civilian operations and sez nothing about the military working this airspace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Parker Posted April 7, 2006 at 02:15 AM Posted April 7, 2006 at 02:15 AM The "Big Sky Theory" states that there's not much chance of two ABV600 aircraft hitting, but they still get tracked nevertheless. Agreed. Chances are you won't run into much traffic up there. But I remembered this and just felt like sharing... From Sled Driver by Brian Shul (a book of memoirs from an SR-71 pilot) When we flew at low altitudes and skimmed by clouds, we sensed our speed by how fast the clouds swept by. When we were high above the earth, we had little physical cues that made us feel we were flying at great speed. I got a real scare one time high over Nevada, and it vividly showed me what our speed looked like. About the only traffic we were told we might see above 70,000, was an errant weather balloon. Although they were a rare sight, they were a hazard to aircraft. I never thought I would see one, but I did. First it appeared as a speck on my windscreen, then it instantly became a giant ball off to my right. There was no time to make an evasive turn or even think about turning. I could only watch in terror as it whisked p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed us. I quickly looked in the mirror and saw the balloon flutter wildly from the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age of our shockwave. In an instant, it became a speck again. The entire episode took only a few seconds. By the time I informed [my copilot] what I had just seen, it was long gone. ... I preferred to keep a sense of our speed by simply watching my DME click off a mile every two seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts