Another set of photos from the convention in Chi-Town

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

You know how I feel on the subject, just a bunch of cronyism going on...

 

How? I'm curious if you even know what "cronyism" means.

 

Main Entry: cro·ny·ism

Pronunciation: -nE-"i-z&m

Function: noun

:partiality to cronies [friends] especially as evidenced in the appointment of political hangers-on to office without regard to their qualifications

 

I don't see this anywhere in VATUSA...or is it just that one of your friends applied for a position and lost it to someone more qualified? Just because there are staff in VATUSA that were friends before being both staff at VATUSA, doesn't make it simply cronyism.

 

Three words: move to VATCAN. It's nice to see Marc has already done so.

[Ross Carlson]

It's like a daytime soap opera, but not just in the daytime!

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

Wow, is this what it was like at the convention? Maybe we should call Jerry Springer?

[Justin Wilcox 882814]

I'm with Nathan here.

 

This is way over the top. Remember guys, this is a game that we do in our free time. If you get this upset over a game then you most likely have a lot of time on your hands, or another serious issue. Marc, quite honestly I've lost all respect I had for you. If you are over this, the posts you make are certainly not reflecting that. You're not an idiot, so I'm sure you can figure that out.

 

Please guys, let's all move on.

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Wow, is this what it was like at the convention? Maybe we should call Jerry Springer?

 

Actually, no arguements that I saw sparked up at the convention. It was one of the calmest times VATUSA must have seen

[Marc Sykes 852946]

Cronyism? Wait a second, weren't you two thick as thieves in Los Angeles?

 

Um, hardly. Those who know us both would be well aware that Josh and I don't see eye to eye on that many things, and have had some pretty public disagreements in the past. I think he's a great controller, I admire his dedication to realism (though we disagree fervently on how best to implement it), and we happen to agree on the current sorry state of things on the network, but that's about it. Unless you count both being (at one point) members of the same ARTCC (along with 85 others) as "thick as thieves," I'm having a hard time seeing the cronyism allegation there. Since someone went to "an awful lot of trouble" by looking up the actual definition:

 

partiality to cronies [friends] especially as evidenced in the appointment of political hangers-on to office without regard to their qualifications

 

Josh hasn't held a staff position at ZLA since before I even started controlling, and thus I didn't appoint him to anything, so that's a pretty tough allegation to support. As for how things are run from VATUSA all the way up through the BOG, on the other hand, I couldn't think of a better definition. At the time he was appointed VATNA1, Todd Cox had fewer than 200 hours total on the network, spread out over 4 years. He hasn't logged a second online this year. There's no way you can possibly argue that someone who doesn't even connect to VATSIM for months at a time should be in charge of overseeing policy for all of North America. How the heck would he even know what's working and what isn't? It would be like electing a President of the United States who lived in Australia and came to visit the USA for a day or two once every couple of years.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that Todd Cox got his job because he's buddies with Mike Hayden, who's the BOG member nominally in charge of ATC on the network, and for no other reason. I'm sure it's wonderful that's he's a real-world controller (though not so wonderful for VATSIM since as long as he refuses to connect, nobody online can benefit from that experience), but so am I and you don't see me arguing that that, on its own, qualifies me to hold any staff position anywhere. I would be qualified to run an ARTCC/ACC/FIR/whatever on the basis of my knowledge of and devotion to the network; real-world experience is a bonus, and not even a particularly relevant one given VATSIM's current revolution against realism.

 

Josh..Are you calling me a crony? I just need to understand where you're at on this.

 

I won't speak for Josh, but certainly don't see the BoG exactly going out of its way to embrace different viewpoints. At the top you basically have the exact same dozen or so people that have been there since VATSIM began -- and since the notion of the once-promised BOG elections has been officially quashed, I can't see how that's ever going to change. As for you personally, Richard, you've had lots and lots of blatant corruption brought to your attention in the short time you've been running the show, and have chosen to do pretty much nothing about it. Certainly with VATUSA, the warning signs have been there for months and months, and still no move to effect change at the top. The only question is whether you have actively supported what has gone on (censorship of dissenting viewpoints, intimidation of staffers, firings without cause, etc.) or have just chosen to turn a blind eye to it. I guess at best that makes you an enabler, and at worst a crony. I don't know the real truth and won't speculate.

 

Marc, quite honestly I've lost all respect I had for you.

 

Good, does that mean the next time I write an article you won't feel the need to plagiarize it on the ZTL site? Just kidding buddy, I'll let bygones be bygones on that one at least.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

I personally don't see what Josh is doing wrong. He see's something corrupt and has the *bravery*(substituted for another word) to call people out on it. I personally would think josh is doing the right thing. But on the other hand we have you, who sits and post stupid little jokes about everything. Maybe if you spent as much time caring about ZTL as you did making stupid comments I would have stayed.

 

Brandon, I'm sorry that you feel this way. I still do not know the details behind your leaving, but an email explaining your concerns at the time would have been the best way to handle things. I can't fix a problem if I don't know that it exists. In any case, I hope that everything works out for you at JAX.

Edited March 28, 2006 at 08:52 PM by Guest

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

 

Good, does that mean the next time I write an article you won't feel the need to plagiarize it on the ZTL site? Just kidding buddy, I'll let bygones be bygones on that one at least.

 

Can you link me to this article of yours that we copied? I'd really like to see it. None of us have a clue what you are talking about. Nothing has been removed from our website either.

[Marc Sykes 852946]

You bet:

 

http://www.ztlartcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=256

 

Cross-reference with the glossary at:

 

http://www.laartcc.org/article_page/7

 

Note also the general structure of the forum post vice my article. Pretty similar but with different (ZTL-specific) IAPs selected.

 

I received no request for permission ahead of time and only found out about it when I happened to venture over to the forums a few months after it was posted. Notice how it says it was edited 2 1/2 months after the original posting date? That was to add the small italics line that thanks me and a few others. I wasn't involved, but I guess a mutual acquaintance "suggested" to Justin that perhaps he should at least say thanks if he was going to "borrow" significant sections of somebody else's work.

 

Obviously it's not a big deal given that I've never said anything publicly before today. I'd have happily granted permission had I been asked for it ahead of time, and would have helped him fix some of the errors as well (there are some errors in my article too, but I can't be bothered to go back and correct them after 2 years). Just thought I'd have a dig at Justin since he chose to call me out.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

Obviously it's not a big deal given that I've never said anything publicly before today. I'd have happily granted permission had I been asked for it ahead of time, and would have helped him fix some of the errors as well (there are some errors in my article too, but I can't be bothered to go back and correct them after 2 years). Just thought I'd have a dig at Justin since he chose to call me out.

 

I understand, and I appreciate you not making a big deal of it when it was discovered. I'm just not really sure why it was necessary to "dig" at him for stating his opinion by using something completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[Marc Sykes 852946]

Dunno, guess I just saw a certain humour in saying publicly that you don't respect someone when elsewhere you respect him enough to want to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] his work off as your own. Imitation's the sincerest form of flattery, and flattery implies respect on a certain level, after all. I don't expect anyone else to appreciate the relevance, though. Welcome to VATSIM, where everybody's a resident of Irony Gulch but nobody understands the meaning of the word.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

Dunno, guess I just saw a certain humour in saying publicly that you don't respect someone when elsewhere you respect him enough to want to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] his work off as your own. Imitation's the sincerest form of flattery, and flattery implies respect on a certain level, after all. I don't expect anyone else to appreciate the relevance, though. Welcome to VATSIM, where everybody's a resident of Irony Gulch but nobody understands the meaning of the word.

 

I won't speak for him, but it appears that he did have a great deal of respect for you, just as myself and many others on the network have respected you. I don't know enough of the details regarding what happened to you at ZLA to have an opinion one way or the other, but I do think that dragging it out on this forum in every other thread is a bit unnecessary. I'm sure that was the basis behind Justin's original comment, and I tend to have similar feelings. At the same time, I will admit that a number of my posts on this forum are also not necessary and off topic at times, so by no means do I claim to be perfect.

 

As far as the cronyism stuff....Josh, I'm going to be flat out honest with you bud. Your attitude is quite poor sometimes, and I don't think it is the type of attitude that should be in a leadership position. Whenever I am considering someone for a staff position one of the primary things that I look for is someone who can relate to our members without trying to intimidate them or make them feel like idiots whenever they make a mistake. I would guess that VATUSA has similar considerations whenever they are seeking staff members. On paper, you have excellent qualfications and I am sure that you can work traffic as good as any of us. The bottom line is, none of that matters if you go around attacking everyone for every little decision that is made in which you do not agree. That is how I feel, take it for what its worth.

Edited March 29, 2006 at 01:18 AM by Guest

[George Marinakis]

This has gone far enough. Mr. Sykes, you have made some pretty serious accusations against a group of people I have been privileged to work with for the past few years. (For the record, only five of the thirteen present members of the BOG remain from those originally selected). I, of course, have my own opinion on your allegations since I am involved in VATSIM at the highest levels and I know exactly want went on. I'll sum it up in this way....there's an appropriate four letter word that can be used here and you, quite frankly, are full of it.

 

How dare you impugn people's reputations with such smugness??? Quite frankly, who do you think you are? Todd Cox did not get appointed because he was "buddies" with anyone. He was one of numerous candidates who applied for the RD position. Each of these candidates submitted resumés and were interviewed and vetted by a committee led by Roland Collins. Mike Hayden had no part of that process and was not on the committee. If Mr. Cox was not qualified or even lesser qualified than the others, his application would have been one of the many rejected by the committee and there was not a thing that Mike Hayden could have done.

 

Mr. Cox along with a couple of other candidates were then recommended to the full BOG which then had the opportunity to ask additional questions of the candidates. The very last step was a vote conducted by the full BOG (of which Mike Hayden has only ONE VOTE) in which Mr. Cox prevailed. There is no way that Mike Hayden influenced the vote of any of the other Governors. This is the same procedure we have gone through for every RD and BOG vacancy that has arisen since VATSIM's inception. So please, enlighten all of us as to how you know that Mr. Cox got his position as a result of knowing Mike Hayden? What facts do you have which back up your allegations?

 

I speak with Richard Jenkins on a frequent basis and have met with him countless times in person on many social occasions. In other words, I know him quite well and you won't find anyone who pays more attention to details than he does. It is highly implausible that you have brought any legitimate "blatant corruption" to his attention which he has ignored. He's just not cut from that cloth. Censorship of dissenting viewpoints? Intimidation and "firings" without cause? Would you please elaborate Mr. Sykes because I checked with RJ and other than your on-going feud with ZAB and Mr. Turner's selection as VATUSA1, he doesn't have any recollection of "blatant corruption" you have brought to his attention.

 

The truth of the matter Mr. Sykes is that I find it ironic (and I understand the meaning of the word quite well) that you would be so indignant over failure to accept "dissenting viewpoints". At the end of the day, it is YOU who is intolerant and inflexible. Quite frankly, you were your own worst enemy while you were chief at ZLA in the way you conducted its affairs when it came to things such as the debacle over accepting simple center handoffs from ZAB (a pointless feud you carried on at the expense of pilots and VATUSA). Instead of engaging in a civilized discussion on the VATUSA staff forums, you chose to simply refuse to even listen to Mr. Turner's ideas after his appointment as VATUSA1 and instead resorted to openly calling for his firing after only a few short days. You eventually chose to turn your back on the discussion further widening the rift between most of the rest of VATUSA and ZLA. Your last act was to voluntarily unsubscribe from the list.

 

All of this brings us to the real reason you continue to engage in this long running diatribe; the way in which you were dismissed from ZLA. While I will defend Mr. Turner in trying to bring changes which he feels will benefit VATUSA and VATSIM, I would also be the first to tell him that he made a mistake in the way he removed you from ZLA. It wasn't up to me to do that however because he caught hell for it and the last time I checked, he apologized publicly.

 

None of that, however, gives you the right to come on here and make wild, baseless accusations against Todd Cox, Mike Hayden and Richard Jenkins. As always, you don't know when to stop feuding. Rather than taking responsibility for your own actions, you are now choosing to engage in distortion of the truth and outright fabrication. Apparently, you have reached the bottom of the barrel. We can only hope.

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

Wow, is this what it was like at the convention? Maybe we should call Jerry Springer?

 

Actually, no arguements that I saw sparked up at the convention. It was one of the calmest times VATUSA must have seen

 

I'm not surprised by that. In my experience, tempers flare much easier in "text only" situations because you can't read the other person's vocal tone, body language, etc. Most of the time, what people really mean is lost in text because it's hard to convey emotions on a keyboard. People always end up taking things the wrong way in forums/emails.

[Rey Lopez 883899]

i agree with what george says at first i took marc side until i saw everything...i think some people should be quiet and listen A LOT before they talk and then think before they talk...marc you really make it seam like vatsim has been turned over to idiots and that there terrible management is leading the network to shutdown and corrode...i see no such things happening the only thing that happend was that it didnt go YOUR way and that upset you a lot of things upset me each and everyday but i really dont go the way of complaining to everyone about it...i already know a lot of people just like that and people whether they show it or not really do not like people that behave that way and ill tell you I am one that shows it and I dont like babies especially ones that want a bunch of responsibility but forget the acting mature part

 

 

oh yeah and marc why are you complaining about someone not being online enough huh?

 

north america region appears to be running fine probably for the same reason ZLA was still running without you being online all the time...he does his job but it doesnt neccesarily require him online rite? just like yours didnt either? right?

[Marc Sykes 852946]

Quite frankly, who do you think you are?

 

Is this a trick question? I'm a VATSIM member (for now) who has an interest in what happens to the network, has some opinions regarding the current "leadership" or lack thereof, and is using the forums that the network itself provided in order to express those opinions, in an attempt to foster lively discussion and spirited debate. I know that this is a foreign concept to most of those [Mod - Happy Thoughts]embled here before us. Admittedly it is easier when the forums consist only of soundbite press releases and you're told what to think, without having to think for yourself or make sense of dissenting views.

 

If Mr. Cox was not qualified or even lesser qualified than the others, his application would have been one of the many rejected by the committee

 

So what you're saying is that someone who, as a matter of record, spends less time online in a year than anyone whom I'd consider a "committed" or "regular" VATSIM user spends in a week, and who, as a matter of record, doesn't log into the network for months at a time (and not at all in 2006) was actually the most qualified person the BoG could find to run the North American region? I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that all other applicants had never even heard of VATSIM but just saw the ad on monster.com. This is one of those cases where the "truth" (not that I accept it as such -- I stand by everything I wrote) would actually be even more damning than my supposed wild-eyed accusations.

 

I would also be the first to tell him that he made a mistake in the way he removed you from ZLA. It wasn't up to me to do that however because he caught hell for it and the last time I checked, he apologized publicly.

 

It means nothing to "apologize" well after the fact when nothing can be done, especially when you're not in the least bit apologetic anyway. It would be as hollow as if I said "oh gee George, I'm sorry for posting bad things about your cronies .. I won't do that again ever." Everybody knows I'm not and I will (well, I'll probably be suspended before I get the chance, but that's ok. Like I said before, I don't connect to the network anymore anyway -- I'm thinking about applying for a BoG spot and need to get that pesky "online time" off my record in order to get serious consideration, apparently). And everyone knows, and knew at the time, that Jeff Turner will continue to run roughshod over VATUSA until the sweet day when the BoG wakes up and removes him. It'll happen eventually, but too late to keep a lot of members who contributed more before breakfast on Sundays than Turner & Cox have or will in their entire lives. Now if he had admitted all of the wrongdoing that led up to my removal (to give you but one small example of the blatant corruption of which I apprised RJ, I believe there's still the matter of several deleted VATUSA staff forum posts that Turner chose to try to pin, in what the Guinness Book now recognizes as the lamest excuse in world history, on a "server problem" -- that's just the tip of the iceberg of course) and done the honourable thing and resigned, that would have been a different story.

 

Though I'm beginning to see, thanks in no small part to the helpful posts on this thread, that it wouldn't go very far toward solving the larger problem.

[Rey Lopez 883899]

I'm thinking about applying for a BoG spot and need to get that pesky "online time" off my record in order to get serious consideration, apparently).

 

 

marc? online time?

 

oh yeah maybe you should act more umm grown up? apparently thats what they want in someone to be on the BoG someone over 18?

 

 

Troy Autry 844363 vZDV-C1 v marc.. it seems as if you are looking for closure or something.. here is the solution.. reach behind your pc.. see that black power cord.. pull it.. everything will be gone.. and all your problems will go away!

 

good advice there!!

Edited March 29, 2006 at 05:12 AM by Guest

[Mark Brummett]

Wow, all this coming out of a post for pictures from the convention. Too bad this thread got hijacked.

 

Seriously Marc, if you don't connect to the network anymore, then why would you even be reading these forums? Glutton for further punishment maybe? Feeling the need to always get the last word? Last time I heard, that's a symptom of OCD...

[Troy Autry]

Mark- BTW Very nice pictures.. enjoyed viewing them sence i couldnt make it up to chicago.. but im already starting to save for next year!

[Ross Carlson]

Marc, I don't know how to ask this without sounding like I'm just another blind follower, but I gotta ask. If you really hate VATSIM so much, and you really think the BoG are just a bunch of unqualified drooling apes who don't care about the network, and you believe everyone that thinks highly of VATSIM and says so on this forum is just a brainwashed bandwagon-jumper, then why do you spend so much time here on the forums? I see no logical reason for it. Why haven't you simply shed the of horror of VATSIM and moved on?

 

I can't imagine you are actually trying to make a difference in hopes that things will improve and your VATSIM career can be reborn. If that was the case, I'm sure your posts would be much more productive.

 

I imagine you don't care, but to people like me that know next to nothing about what happened with you and Turner and whoever, you sound like nothing more than a spoiled brat who didn't get to stay up past bedtime. I'm sure that's not what you actually are, but that's what it looks like to most of the membership. This can't be good for your karma.

 

So, why are you still here? What purpose could your endless ranting possibly serve?

[Tom Ferry 942166]

I dunno but if I have a concern with someone I approach that person in private and discuss it like grown adults. Its to bad that this thread about the convention has been turned into this.

[Richard Jenkins]

Marc,

 

Well, I see we are still using the same tactics. In the absence of true facts, resort to name calling and back handed innuendo, and for good measure throw in some poison well logic from a freshman year logic cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]. Frankly, the routine is getting old and lacks imagination.

 

As for this rampant corruption problem running wild within VATUSA, I don't see it. The only complaints I have received from ARTCC chiefs or VATUSA staff about Turner are from you. The rest of the staff has said nothing,nada, zip, null about the guy. So I guess either all the other ARTCC chiefs are whimps and afraid to speak for themselves, or you are the malcontent in the crowd. Most likely the other 21 people are wrong and you are right. Seems to usually be the case according to you.

 

You contribute nothing and call into question people's integrity you have never met. I doubt you even know their names. Heck, you didn't even bother to check the BoG roster to see who was an original member and who wasn't. Just throw some mud and see what sticks? Regardless, your days in this forum are over and as the head of the "Cronies" I am removing your forum privileges. In retrospect, I should have deleted your VATSIM account when you asked me to several months ago. I won't make the same mistake twice.

 

RJ

[Paul Heaney 879309]

Well said, Richard.

[Mark Brummett]

Mark- BTW Very nice pictures.. enjoyed viewing them sence i couldnt make it up to chicago.. but im already starting to save for next year!

 

Thanks Troy, everyone there had a fun time.

 

I'm just hoping my part of it won't make me a vicitim of my own success.

[Lance Williams]

Regardless, your days in this forum are over and as the head of the "Cronies" I am removing your forum privileges. In retrospect, I should have deleted your VATSIM account when you asked me to several months ago. I won't make the same mistake twice.

RJ

 

hallelujah! hallelujah! hallelujah.hallelujah. hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!