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Hi All,

I have sat and listened to EGCC APP controlling Liverpool, Hawarden, East Midlands and Leeds over the last few days, Can anyone tell me if this is OK as last time I saw this issue raised it was deamed as "Traffic Chasing" Should we as APP Controllers be offering services to airports that are around our area say within 60 miles or should we just be concentrating on our own airport.

 

The reason I ask is if EGCC APP offers a pilot a service at Liverpool, Hawarden, East Midlands and Leeds then surely if the same pilot calls him even if he is busy with EGCC traffic then he should give those airports a service. If a pilot gets a service from him on an occasion when he is quiet surely he can expect a service if he is busy. This has got to be sorted as pilots are getting well confused on who they should be contacting.

 

If EGCC APP is doing nothing wrong then does this also mean if I am controlling at Hawarden I can also provide a service to any airport I feel fit to within about a 60 miles radius.

Andy King-Magee

Hawarden Virtual UK

CEO ChauffAir VA

Hawarden UK & Virtual-Pilot UK

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http://www.vatsim-uk.org/forum/index.php?topic=3217.0

 

I figure this is a complaint?

 

The thread above gives plenty of information about how to deal with such issues and how not to.

 

If you wish for the UK Staff to address this please forward the relevant details by email to myself or the UK Director/Deputy Director and the matter will be looked into.

Neil Dewson-Smyth

VATSIM Europe RCRP Lead

vatsim[at]d-s.demon.co.uk

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Sorry Neil YOU FIGURED WRONG,

 

Its a question with an explanation to why I was asking the question, if it was a complaint I would have mailed VATSIM-UK for what good that would have done me.

 

Do not twist the post, please answer it instead.

Andy King-Magee

Hawarden Virtual UK

CEO ChauffAir VA

Hawarden UK & Virtual-Pilot UK

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In that case please clarify by email what you concerns are and I will ensure they are addressed. As the question would appear to be confused between controllers covering aerodromes other than the one they are logged in at... and "traffic chasing" which is an entirely different matter again.

 

Ultimately at the heart of this situation is a controller.. or a number of controllers who may have inadvertently or deliberatly broken some of the UK regs. Lets give them a fair shout and a chance to respond to the allegations before it is pulled apart and put back together again in a public medium.

Neil Dewson-Smyth

VATSIM Europe RCRP Lead

vatsim[at]d-s.demon.co.uk

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Do not twist the post, please answer it instead.

 

Unfortunately this may not happen Andy

 

As can be seen in the thread I have linked below, this one was discussed at length way back in the beginning of September 2004. In view of this discussion, and from memory, that is what the forums are all about between members, to discuss issues like this without having to resort to the official complaints procedure. It is in the readers own interpretation of a post as to whether there is any complaint or not and I do not see Andy's post as such. Others obviously do, and hey....thats part of life I guess, we all see things differently

 

It appears that from this discussion, still nothing has been resolved over this issue and what may appear worse still, is that many of the UK members discussed it at length without any input from the staff. One can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that the staff do read their own "domestic" forum, but with evidence of the same scenario being raised again, it must leave one in doubt.

 

http://www.vatsim-uk.org/forum/index.php?topic=2670.0

 

We should not push aside healthy debate only to be substituted by a black and white complaint procedure.

 

Best Regards

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Ultimately at the heart of this situation is a controller.. or a number of controllers who may have inadvertently or deliberatly broken some of the UK regs.

 

Did I not answer?

 

I will respond no further to this thread. But I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you of my full attention should the matter be dealt with by the appropriate channels.

Neil Dewson-Smyth

VATSIM Europe RCRP Lead

vatsim[at]d-s.demon.co.uk

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Typical official VATSIM-UK answer just lately. I asked a civil question, was not persicuting anyone, mentioned no names and because YOU decide its inapropriate you won't discuss it.

 

Who said VATSIM-UK enchoraged FREE speech.

 

And you wonder why I never bothered mailing VATUK coss their BIN must be full by now of the stuff you want to hide. Yes that was me having a go because VATUK is going down the pan rapidly and its time we had a vote of confidence. I think its time Lee resigned and let someone who cares more take over and put VATUK back at the top where it used to be.

Andy King-Magee

Hawarden Virtual UK

CEO ChauffAir VA

Hawarden UK & Virtual-Pilot UK

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Totally agree with you Andy, a vote of confidence is required and needs to be actioned, not swept under the carpet like Neil and others do within VATSIM-UK do.

 

Neil nevers give people the insight of what needs to be done, he just privataly says email me and i will keep it quiet so the membership wont be able to see any outcomes, the membership says cheers Neil.

 

One final point if i may say, funny the link from Dan Finneys post was about the same controller who today and yesterday seems to think he controllers 3/4/5 airports in the North West of the UK, i would like to know if this controller should be looked into and see how he controls his APP position on Vatsim at his airport and not others.

Jason

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I have now been asked by two members of my VA late this evening as to whether or not they are required to call EGCC_APP for any type of ATC service when they are inbound or outbound EGGP Liverpool.

 

I am no longer a UK VaCC member and therefore technically unqualified to answer this and would like some guidance on this issue.

 

The VA flies regularly out of Liverpool and some help in offering the pilots definitive guidance would be very much appreciated.

The last thing as CEO that I want to happen is to have my pilots shouted at for not adhering to the correct protocol.

 

I resort to asking on the public forum due to the fact that I have had previous communications relating to other subjects unanswered.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Best Regards

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There seems to be a virus at Hawarden that encourages people to post "simple questions" which are phrased in such a way as to constitute a complaint at best, and often stop a gnat's whisker short of a personal attack.

 

examples...

 

question:

"Is xyz permissible?"

 

complaint:

"I've seen A doing xyz. I didn't think this was allowed."

 

If only people could understand how to correctly phrase a complaint then they might actually be able to get some sort of answer and not come across as someone who is just stirring.

 

Because of the way the original question was phrased, Neil CANNOT post the straight, public answer you think you deserve as it falls clearly within the realms of a dispute. Simply realise this and do not have a go at him for knowing his job.

 

 

As a sort of answer, albeit from someone who is not in a staff position but who has read the necessary docomeentation and seen various conversations, I shall say this:

 

An approach controller responsible for their own section of controlled airspace can give control at fields within that controlled airspace in lieu of a manned position at that field. In other words, EGCC_APP can control aircraft who could normally be the responsibility of EGCC_TWR. It would not be unreasonable for them to also cover Woodford as it lies within Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace, but Barton is under the CTA so would be excempt, as would Liverpool (with their own CTR) and Hawarden (in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G)

 

However, EGCC_APP can give a service to an aircraft within a reasonable radius (to simulate RW radar coverage) depending on controller workload outside controlled airspace, be that RAS, RIS or FIS. This wouldn't include t/o or landing clearances but can include radio checks, weather info, traffic advisories and suchlike. It would not, in my opinion, be unreasonable to offer a basic traffic service to traffic in unmanned cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-D airspace though I'd leave cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A to its own devices (technically outwith the concept of topdown cover)

 

So, If I were on EGCC_APP and an aircraft was talking to me whilst inbound to Hawarden I would feel it was within my rights to advise him of ILS details, final approach paths and any pertinent traffic, but I wouldn't be offering vectors. I'd ask that he advises when on the ground then dump him.

- Rob

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Dan,

 

The official answer should come from a member of the Manchester team, but from a look at the various charts, it seems to me that the inbound and outbound routes will be within Liverpool airspace or in the Manchester TMA and higher (the realm of MAN_WT_CTR and their ilk)

 

If the traffic stays clear of the Manchester CTR/CTA then there will be no requirement to contact EGCC_APP

- Rob

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Robert, so heres some new "simple questions" for you to answer as it seems some people avoid the answers and start to have a personal go at people, like at EGNR as you quote ''There seems to be a virus at Hawarden''

 

Why did EGCC_APP start to give a clearence to a aircraft sitting on the ground of EGNR?

 

Why did EGCC_APP vector aircraft onto the ILS at EGNX?

 

You quote ''It would not be unreasonable for them to also cover Woodford as it lies within Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace, but Barton is under the CTA so would be excempt, as would Liverpool (with their own CTR) and Hawarden (in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G)''

 

So this controller did the complete opposite to what you do and what other EGCC based controllers do in the North West.

 

All we are trying to do is establish the reasons for the same controller to break the rules because he was at a quiet period when controlling, but when hes busy he hasn'nt the time if the same aircraft calls for a service. Why does the controller have the say for what he and he cannot do when hes either busy or quiet.

Jason

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Hi Rob,

I can understand why you think theirs a 'Virus' at Hawarden, but look at it another way, we are all LONG standing members of VATSIM/SATCO so we can see differences not like newer members, also we are not affraid to open our mouths and ask questions when we think something is wrong. This issue was raised last September and here we are at the end of December STILL with the same issues. That to me says the staff are either ignoring it or ain't doing their jobs. So no matey their is NO 'Virus' at Hawarden, we have our own TeamSpeak Server where we discuss issues and then if one of us decides to ask the staff via a Forum then so be it, we do not plot attacks on the staff.

 

Like I said in a previous post the UK Division has gone down the pan compared to what it used to be, you only have to read the unofficial Forum to see that and its not just from members who frequent my TeamSpeak Server. The proof of unrest is their for us all to see.

Andy King-Magee

Hawarden Virtual UK

CEO ChauffAir VA

Hawarden UK & Virtual-Pilot UK

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Robert

 

Two main responses for you to think over and I say them with the best intentions. You may need a brew of some description.

 

Firstly, I was very saddened that you are under the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that there is a "virus" at "Hawarden".

I can only [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you mean "Hawarden" as in Andy King's "Empire" as has been labelled by other UK members and staff, and which therefore I will now unfortunately for you all, be labelled as such and fall into the same bucket as do many members of the "Hawarden" Teamspeak members and Pilot Help Room members. I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure both yourself and the VATSIM membership now, that the members of "Hawarden" are good long standing and very experienced members of the VATSIM community who collectively strive for the utmost realism, whether it be controlling or piloting on the network.

 

Over the recent few months, everything that either myself, Andy King or Jason Sparkes or any other friend, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociate or helper in the "Hawarden" fraternity communicates either publicly or indeed more recently through the correct channels is now received and seen as a whinge or complaint. This has been brought about sadly by personal dislikes from members who have been graced and put in place in positions of trust within our community.

 

To be very honest with you, in my own experience, any official complaints that I have ever submitted through the correct channels have been held against me and will be for ever and eternity, and there have been just two ever since the SATCO days. I have avoided these members ever since for on the first contact since the outcome of my complaints, I was treated with the most rude and disturbing communication and further to this, have received har[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ment on a regular basis when they have seen me online. Consequently, I have now digressed with using the official procedure as I now know that it only makes you a target for the members that you complain about.

 

From my own experience, this procedure should be the very last resort. Members who feel that they are NOT being taken seriously through what has been deemed the correct channels have been left with nowhere else to go to say what they have to say. Active members who have had and still have a great deal to offer the VATSIM community who apparently now have this virus you speak of must now feel very saddened to be labelled as such, I certainly take great offence at this.

 

 

Secondly, I happen to agree with your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption of the Liverpool procedures Robert. From a real-world perspective, and you must excuse me for seemingly blowing my own trumpet - not my intention - there is very little that I can learn about what happens at this airport in the real world, the information that I am able to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] on to my VA pilots will be 99% consistent with the real world operations, procedures and regulations. this however will not slot in with the vatsim-uk procedures in totality. I did review and amend the Liverpool UK pages bringing them up to date just over a year ago, but even then I noticed that there were no guidelines for the controllers on what they should not do. I have raised the issue on many occasions and the outcome was a general tendency to let controllers do what they felt they could handle. I can only p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] on information on what is the "gospel" from the staff members that monitor and provide the working UK arena.

 

I honestly doubt that there will be any further input by any staff into this thread, for the reasons that have been stated above from one of the UK staff members. It has now been labelled and categorised as a "complaint" and the UK divisional director will have instructed his staff to stay away.

 

Far from the "debate" being over, I am prepared to view the same fora in another few months time where the same subjects will possibly be raised again but to no avail. We shall be in the same situation, and when it comes to the crunch, it will be a basic choice of realism versus having any old service.

 

After all, you only fly online to talk to someone, right....?

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This might get confusing....

 

Jason:

 

I'm not having a go at hawarden - it was merely an observation

 

If the specific actions you list were to happen, the controller would be in error. This could be due to poor education, a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the regulations or the individual merely choosing to ignore the laid-down procedures (as if that would happen.)

 

In all of these instances, it needs to be flagged through the conflict resolution procedure and be dealt with by the people who need to retrain or perhaps take more drastic action. There is nothing to stop a neigbouring controller from politely reminding someone of a restriction they are apparently unaware of, so long as it remains civil and doesn't drift towards badgering or harr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ment.

 

Service to aircraft outside controlled airspace is always up to the controller's discretion - if their workload means they can't give a RIS to someone nearby then they won't give the service. Logically, someone labouring under the misaprehension that they can give clearance to traffic at nearby airports would be correct in determining for themselves whether they are able to do that.

 

There is an apparent frustration to a lack of any obvious resolution of previously flagged issues, though they may have been delayed due to the observations being aired in public and therefore severely hindering any official action. I don't know whether people claim to have seen one persistent offender or if there is merely a trend towards poor understanding by those coming up through the system. Public discussion about apparent shortcomings in the system can easily be discussed in a public forum but must remain free from specifics (airfields, positions, times, names etc.), even by implication. There are a lot of educated people around and they can see through a thinly-disguised snipe.

 

Andy:

To the outside world it does look like a concerted attack from the HFC, whether it is meant to be or not. That is perception for you.

 

To me it seems that the main problem is not that long-standing members (oo-err) are flagging up issues but that they are not doing it correctly for whatever reason. Whilst I can understand the frustration you may feel from apparent inaction, to start ignoring the rules yourselves to get a point across really isn't the best way to do it. You will end up putting peoples noses out of joint and cooperation will drop accordingly, whether this is right or wrong. It all comes down to politics in the end - it shouldn't but it inevitably will when you are dealing with people and personalities.

 

I agree that there are some members of the vuk hierarchy who appear to be deadwood or worse, but again there are some who are absolute stars. As such, it mirrors real life and we need to deal with it as best we can.

I will not p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] judgement on any individuals within the UK staff because I do not have all the facts - these volunteers have other, real-world commitments and have their waxing and waning enthusiasm like the rest of us and to dump someone who is going through a bad patch piddles all over the concept of stability.

 

I'll have to join your TS for a discussion some time - sounds interesting

 

 

Dan:

Hawarden is a clique, like it or not. It is a clique that is doing some good things but it is a clique nevertheless.

The registration-required website, the private teamspeak server, the occasional stand-offish nature and the apparent speaking with one voice all support that label.

 

Cliques can get along with everybody else no problems but there will always be a tendency towards a "them and us" attitude from both sides.

I'm fully with you for the utmost realism, so long as it doesn't get totally anal

 

If everything that you (all) have reported through official channels has been seen as a whinge or a complaint, that could be because it was phrased as a whinge or complaint. Certainly, most of the "issues" posted in public have been penned in a whingy complainy manner. However, the receivers of the complaints should, if acting in a professional manner, be able to enter into some sort of conversation and get good information out of it.

 

Perhaps we need a system like CONDOR - COnfidential Occurence Reports. This would allow an issue to be flagged to a group of people who could then look at the facts and highlight it (if necessary) to the correct people. Now, this woul dhave to be reporting facts, not opinions and not clouded with language that makes it personal

 

ie:

 

"Date: 23/12/2004 @ 17:50 / EGOV_TWR (Phil McCavity) / COntroller not part of the military RTS handled traffic at a military field"

 

It draws no conclusions, makes no personal accusations but merely highlights an observed occurence which was in breach of published regulations. How the powers that be see fit to handle that would be up to them, but I would hope that they would corroborate the report (remember, there may be mitigating circomestances or special conditions that the general membership are unaware of), flag it to the mil RTSM and, if necessary, send an email to the person clarifying the regulations and inviting them to join the mil RTS.

 

It is essential that the person making the report remain anonymous to all but the highest echelons - thats the "confidential" bit.

I am disturbed that you have had to deal with people who have used previous reports against you.

 

After all, you only fly online to talk to someone, right....?

Do I detect a little irony?

I hate that statement as I have heard it so often. I fly online to simulate UK air traffic operations in a virtual environment and if that means I don't need to speak to anyone, that is fine by me. I also don't chase aircraft even if they are in my own airspace but treat them as rogues. I may drop them a PM as they leave advising them though.

 

 

Neil DS:

Whilst steering away from the specifics of the allegations that started this thread, can you make any comment on the more general points raised here?

- Rob

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Robert

 

The Hawarden teamspeak server is there to help VATSIM pilots who are starting out. It has been there before any other one to one help system and is still there today (I am beginning to wonder why now that any of the members should bother in future to help and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] on their knowledge to others - is this what it is all about...?) .

 

Does a member need to register to use the VATSIM UK teamspeak server? - Is that not also a clique then...?

Can the same members of the VATSIM UK teamspeak that frequent it regularly also be considered a clique?

 

I would have honestly thought that VATSIM UK would be very grateful of all the help that it was presented with. Now then, there are also other teamspeak servers in the UK that are hosted separately to the VATSIM UK one, do these people suffer the same criticism and labelling?

 

It is interesting to note that there are over 400 members of the virtual pilot "clique" now and it is still growing. Whether you decide to label this help area as a clique, that is entirely up to you.

 

 

It is interesting to note that the thread below brought about the resignation of member Mr King as VATUK Pilot Chief. Can you honestly now say that Hawarden in that case is the only place on VATSIM that has a clique?

 

It is also interesting to note, and it has been posted so many times, that 'trial by membership' or 'trial by press' is not the way to proceed. If you look at the link that the UK staff member was good enough to grace us with and read UK1's post in the thread.

 

Now read this link and decide for yourself as to why the same criteria was not applied. he thread was allowed to run and as a consequence, one of the staff's fellow members resigned.

 

 

http://www.vatsim-uk.org/forum/index.php?topic=2430.0

 

Robert, if your face doesn’t fit, there is no hope for you in the UK division, if you happen to rub someone up the wrong way by saying something that they do not like then again, there is little hope for you.

 

I have little faith when members say to me, go through the correct channels because at the end of the day, it all depends on "who" you are.

 

I will continue to help new pilots at the "clique" and furnish them with the basic knowledge that they require to fly online. You must remember that nobody is forcing them to choose any learning medium, if they choose to come and speak with the Hawarden "clique" then it is their own choice.

 

I am just happy to offer to them what I know, if there are others in VATSIM who dislike this then so be it, its all part of the nastier side of life where the little green eyed monsters stand head and shoulder above the rest.

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A lot of it is to do with scale - to real people, all simmers can seem a bit cliquey.

 

As a member of the vRAF/Mil RTS I am sure I leave myself open to similar accusations as we have closed discussions, similar outlooks and funny ways in the eyes of others. However, it is the interaction with the community at large that really cements the label.

 

I remember the thread you list - from memory, most of the postings went a long way to praising individuals as opposed to attacking them. The primary issue being discussed (certainly from my perspective) was one of division policy and common sense that seemed to be at odds with the system in place. Obviously there were some exceptions to this as a large number of people were involved. For more details (everyone else reading this), read the thread as there is no point in going over it again.

 

I am certainly not afraid of making my views known on all manner of issues within the division (the thread above being a case in point) but as of yet I am not aware of any move against me. Maybe I'm just doing it right.

 

- Rob

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I am sorry that yet another slanging match appears to be developing in this thread.

 

There are several issues here:

1. the rules about what airports EGCC_APP can provide ATC at.

2. the way issues are raised on Vatsim-UK, whether or not they are complaints.

3. the difference between healthy debate about an issue, and complaining about an individual controller

4. dissatisfaction among some of the Vatsim-UK members with some of the Vatism-UK staff

 

In the absence of VATUK1 I will contribute to this discussion as best I can.

 

1. I am unable to comment on the rules about which airports come under the control of EGCC_APP, as I am still just a "southern" controller. I will undertake to find out from the FIR operations directors. (There may be a delay due to people being away at Christmas). In the meantime, only Robert and Dan have contributed to the discussion by saying what they feel should be the correct procedure. How about the rest of the "northerners" telling us what they think, rather than just asking questions?

 

2 and 3. I am quite prepared to participate in any reasonable discussion, and will encourage the staff to do the same. The issue of clarifying rules about who can control what is by itself a fair question. However when it degenerates into a complaint that "this controller needs to be looked into" or asking "why?" a controller controlled in airspace that the poster clearly does not agree with, then neither is helpful. If this controller "needs to be looked into" then there are procedures to follow - not least of which is the controller needs to be identified by name outside a public forum. I haven't a clue why a particular controller chose to control particular airports - and won't be able to ask him or her unless I know who to ask. The complaints procedure is there for a reason - if you aren't happy with the response you get, then there are facilities to take it higher.

 

4. It is always worrying when members of an organisation are dissatisifed with staff members. However shouting about it on here isn't going to make much difference. My personal aim for Vatsim-UK for 2005 is to make it the exciting and enjoyable place that people will want to control and fly in. My appeal to members therefore is to help me and the rest of the staff to do that. If you wish please contract me privately through the deputy director mailbox, and lets see what we can do to improve things. If you have problems over indidivdual members of staff, you can raise them with me in confidence. If you have problems with me or the whole of the Vatsim-UK staff, then you will need to take your issues higher.

 

Ruth McTighe

Deputy Director, VATSIM-UK

Ruth McTighe

Heathrow Director, Essex Radar, Thames Radar, London Information

[Mod - Happy Thoughts]t webmistress CIX VFR Club http://www.cixvfrclub.org.uk/

Webmistress Plan-G http://www.tasoftware.co.uk/

Now not a VATanything

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Hi Ruth,

My post was a question and in no way was meant as a complaint. I want to know if while I am controlling on EGNR APP can I control other traffic at other airports like I am seeing EGCC APP do? The post did not deserve being tagged as a complaint by Neil, that is why this thread went downhill because yet again a simple question that was asked was refused a simple answer.

 

Sorry Ruth but I refuse to have my posts pigeon holed by Neil, you know what I put into VATUK, the hours I spend helping other members. I ask nothing in return just some respect. Everything I do I do for the benefit of VATUK even though at times it may not look that way. I bring up issues that need addressing. This pitucular one was raised last September and still nothing has been done so I raised it again.

 

I do like Rob's sugestion about anonomously p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing on information so then no personal feelings can be brought into it.

Andy King-Magee

Hawarden Virtual UK

CEO ChauffAir VA

Hawarden UK & Virtual-Pilot UK

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I'd still like to know if EGCC_APP is allowed to control EGNX/EGGP/EGNM/EGNR on the ground or in the air?

 

Protocol does not work, its been proven, so the forums, either this official one or the unofficial UK forum are the only means of contact are available.

 

Easy question if i say and if the answer is no, well, this controller is not supposed to control 4 airports aswell as his own then action should be taken because this contoller is doing it time after time...

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Jason

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Afternoon,

 

I am not in a position to comment on the Controller part of this thread, however, one correction is needed.

 

the unofficial UK forum

In terms of the Forums, the UK divisional one is the UK's official medium. As you can see from the thread from Kyp on opening of these fora, and common sense. This is an official medium of vatsim which includes a general area for all divisions to post and answer questions from vatsim at large so to speak, much like the old NG's used to be.

 

The local divisional forum is the best place for specifics for divisions.

These forums are very good for info usefull to all members and general information on the divisional matters.

The later comment is just the way i see it.

 

Take care

Regards

Nick Partridge

Regards

Nick Partridge 811834

VATSIM.net Membership Manager

Support Group 2

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I think the only response you are now going to get is that the matter has been flagged and it will be investigated as appropriate.

 

A direct answer to your "easy question" is impossible as that question is always tainted so as to imply that a person is in the wrong and action needs to be taken against them - that is a personal matter between the authorities and the controller and, bluntly, none of your business.

 

The answer to the base question of what traffic you are allowed to control from a position is available in the vatsim-uk air traffic control manual, remembering the vatsim-UK "top-down" policy. UK NOTAM 01/04 (discretion to handle area traffic) may also apply in some circomestances.

A controller should have sufficient knowledge fo their own airspace to be able to apply those regulations correctly.

 

Armed with that knowledge, draw your own conclusions.

- Rob

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