Aircraft type on clearance

[Johan Grauers]

... one I hadn't realized existed B778 which designates a B777-8.

Just noting that this doesn't exist to my knowledge (and according to ICAO Doc 8643).

I agree that we haven't really figured out why here.

I get the point made earlier about "correcting" plans that are using different aircraft. What I don't get about this statement however is why... why isn't the airline modifying the plan? Or why isn't the pilot in that case (and that case alone) telling delivery that they are no longer flying their Skyhawk across the pond but rather their A388?

 

I get that we like to simulate it... but honestly, it just seems to be a waste of time. Keeping it simple is just not a concept that seems to resonate at real world LHR. I understand that there are some concerns with not guaranteed wing-tip clearance, but why couldn't the pilot just correct their plan rather than every single plane announcing their aircraft type on frequency.

What could be

Miami Delivery, American Four-Fourty-Six-Heavy, information A, clearance to London Heathrow.

becomes

Heathrow Delivery, American Four-Fourty-Six, Stand 327, a Boeing Triple-Seven-Two-Hundred, information A, Q-N-H 1017, clearance to Miami.

The reasoning here is just... non-existant.

 

 

ATC in the UK can not amend flightplans, the company has to file a CHG message through AFTN and amend the plan. The only thing we can touch is the EOBT, and where I work we've been asked by airlines not to touch it so we're not supposed to do anything with that either unless we issue start-up delays (for example, LVPs).

 

I actually in general agree there are a lot of things that seem to me, could be easier, but I'm not that experienced and I have only worked at one airport with our type of traffic. However the UK in general (in my opinion as someone who originally grew up somewhere else) is very "belts and braces" about these things, and a lot of procedures exist to cover for possible issues that quite rarely occur.

 

Okay Simon...and Andreas,

 

In the UK they do it, because of the approach and departure separation. Usually airlines file repetitive flightplans and it can happen that a different type is used than filed on the repetitive flightplan.

 

I get this, but I'm not really sure what is meant by "repetitive flightplans". My understanding, being only a "cabin seater", is that commercial pilots rarely file their flightplans anymore. As I understand it, they are usually filed by a "company dispatcher" for the flightcrew, who get briefed on the filed plan.

 

I've looked at ICAO Doc 4444, especially Appendix A where it speaks of flight plans and repetitive flight plans (RPLs). I understand from that reading that, for example, BAW dispatcher(s) submits an RPL and in that RPL has to list the aircraft type. I also understand that the aircraft type listed on the RPL may not be the actual trip aircraft if a substitution is needed. Who is the RPL submitted to and how does the relevant controller responsible get that plan? Does someone in an office with no windows receive the RPL and forward it electronically to the appropriate Air Traffic Control Office? What do they do with it? How does it get to the Departure/Ground/Tower Controller?

 

I find it hard to believe that once an RPL is submitted that a commercial carrier in this day and age could actually "get away with" subbing a B777...sorry, B77L...for a B738 and the only failsafe to ATC knowing what actual aircraft is being flown is a pilot on first contact giving his or her aircraft type.. Are you saying that once an RPL is filed, if no one asks specifically what type aircraft is being flown that day...or offers the correct type on initial contact...that no one other than the pilot will know what type plane they are operating? Does it really boil down to "Clearance Delivery, Speed Bird 1234, Stand 405, type A320, IFR to Liverpool please" as being the only way ATC will know what type aircraft they are dealing with?

 

RPLs seem to be a common practice in many, many countries. How do those countries that do not require aircraft type on first contact ever find out what type aircraft is really flying?

 

So, while I understand that the practice of using RPLs and the need to know wake turbulence categories is a factor in the requirement in the UK to give your aircraft type on first contact, it cannot be the driving factor or it would be an ICAO requirement and all countries would be requiring it of pilots. Something else has made this a UK requirement I think, not RPLs, not wake turbulence, not the Tower guy wanting to visually "see" the aircraft he is talking to. There are plenty of "ATC blindspots" listed on the charts, yet aircraft there still get "controlled".

 

Finally, I feel the need to repeat. I have absolutely no issue with providing ATC with my aircraft type on first contact or any other time they may want it from me. I will do it gladly and with not the slightest hesitation. If truly RPLs are the driving reason for this requirement wouldn't it be simpler to rescind the section/privilege of RPLs and not allow them. Seems a lot more "practical" than expecting the pilot calling up to say their aircraft type...just saying?

 

Randy

 

We need the acft type because we have been bitten so many times by the type being wrong. I have been in ATC less than 3 years and I have several times had people with incorrect aircraft types call me up for clearance. I have also had aircraft arrive with wrong types on the plan more than once.

 

In general it has no impact on wake turbulence, the substitutions are often in the same category, but it has happened. I think if everyone did check aircraft type on departure we would stop doing it on arrival, but because most countries don't it will most likely continue to be checked by ATC for a long time still in the UK.

 

 

To be honest the one thing I might see changing this is if we start checking the hex-code against the flight plans automatically. But that requires the aircraft to be mode S equipped and the database then needs to be accurate, etc etc.

[Trevor Hannant]

Just to add to this, certain airport textual data requires the advising of aircraft type on first contact. Heathrow was mentioned previously so from the Textual Data (Page 19):

 

Pilots are to report their aircraft type, stand number, QNH and the identification letter of the received ATIS information on first contact with 'Heathrow Delivery'

 

Gatwick (page 12):

 

Departing aircraft on first contact with Gatwick ATC must state aircraft type, stand number and the code letter of the latest ATIS received and maintain a listening watch on the appropriate frequency

 

It's not just another VATSIM 'fad' but an effort to emulate properly UK control procedures.