Visiting Controllers

[Christopher Morton 1134662]

Hi All,

 

Recently I wanted to visit the Switzerland vACC from the UK for something a little different. However I have noticed that all vACC's I have looked at are closed to new visiting controllers due to long training queue's. Do anyone know why this is, and when I will be able to join as a visiting controller?

 

Many thanks

Chris

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Happens when they are overwhelmed training controllers they have.

 

Just have to wait, they have more priority then visitors

[Johnny Coughlan]

I find visiting controllers are a taboo, people don't realise their trapped in an area untill they want to as you say "try something a little different".

 

I've given up on the issue to be honest, the only 2 options available outside of contacting a vACC directly having to deal with the bureaucracy that you menioned for VATEUD members are...

 

• Senior Controller Roaming Endorsement

>>HERE<<, since 2010 there are only 5 controllers on that roster .
 
VATEUD Open Sky Areas >>HERE<<,
Open Sky is an initiative within VATEUD allowing the members of any vACC within the VATEUR Region to open up any position in a designated Open Sky Area in order to bring online presence to current dormant or non-existent areas of VATEUD. Do we even have any areas without/fall under a vACC?.

 

So I guess keep panhandling to vACC's and hope for the best .

[Thimo Koolen]

Most Vaccs in Europe have too many people applying and not enough instructors/mentors to train these people. There are long queues and their 'main controllers' are more important than visiting controllers.

 

This issue was also talked about here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=71614

[Johnny Coughlan]

Most Vaccs in Europe have too many people applying and not enough instructors/mentors to train these people. There are long queues and their 'main controllers' are more important than visiting controllers.

 

This issue was also talked about here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=71614

 

The problems have been highlighted and I'm sure he has experienced them as he has pointed out.

 

What's needed are solutions as the only 2 current ones in VATEUD I've posted about are at this stage pointless.

 

Remember we're talking about visiting controllers, not fresh brand new members, visiting controllers of a certain grade(C1) and sufficient experience should at the very least be able to control a certain airport(non major) by studying docomeentation on the airport to a competent level. A kind of 'visiting airport'.

 

We in VATeir trialed this six years ago successfully with the Vateir "Green Card" Scheme, Flightsim.com post / Original VATSIM post

 

Green Card Scheme - What Is It?

 

VATeir’s new Green Card Scheme is a new initiative to allow controllers from any division control certain airports/positions in Ireland corresponding to the rating they hold, without the need for visiting status. With this new initiative, VATeir aims to:

 

• Provide a means for ALL VATSIM controllers holding at least an S2 rating to experience ATC in a different country other than their own.

 

• Build on the progress made by VATEUD through the Open Sky project with a fresh initiative.

 

 

What Do I Need?

 

To control in Ireland all you need is the following:

 

• A willingness to learn, and experience something new.

• An S2 rating or higher.

• Procedures Docomeent for the airport in question – Click Here

• Charts for the airport in question - Click Here

• EuroScope – The primary ATC client used in Europe.

• The VATeir EuroScope Sector and ESE files - Click Here

 

At the time this was a bold move for a vACC to just open the door and let people in but we felt it benifited us and even a few visiters joined us full time.

 

As ATC's we trust and deal with pilots who have just registered and log in to be some bit competent but when an ATC from another area who has the rating and accomeulated a decent amount of hours that shows they've had training and experience applies for visiting status its nearly treated as an invasion of sorts.

 

I think a review of the current system is needed and relaxing of the current rules taken.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Johnny, is that system still active? What can you (or others) say about the results, both positive and negative?

[Johnny Coughlan]

Johnny, is that system still active? What can you (or others) say about the results, both positive and negative?

 

Kyle I was apart of the team that implemented it, it was 6 years ago and was only a trail for a couple of months, though I don't think it officially ended and was just forgotten about(I'll explain below).

 

What I can say about it was, the fear some members had of us 'opening the door' was soon alleviated as we really only got sporadic interest which reinforced my pro argument for the scheme in that even though you open your doors, not many may even come, we offered all regional towered airports and out of 3 international airports 2 were apart of the scheme, we only had 1 airport that being Dublin and the CTR positions which were not apart of the scheme.

 

We created all the docomeentation needed and provided the .sct files, so all the visiting controllers had to do was just do a little study. Our main aim was to provide a way of eliminated the bureaucracy of ATC's getting a visiting status and showing that we had trust in the ATC's who would control on those positions.

 

The positives were it helped us man positions that were not first preference for local ATC's so we could offer more of a service with the vACC's airspace.

 

The negatives were really only of the ATC's who did control during the scheme some might not have fully read the material and made procedural mistakes but that really is the only thing, if they did it was pointed out and was usually corrected then.

[Jonas Kuster]

Open Sky is an initiative within VATEUD allowing the members of any vACC within the VATEUR Region to open up any position in a designated Open Sky Area in order to bring online presence to current dormant or non-existent areas of VATEUD. Do we even have any areas without/fall under a vACC?.

From my understanding, all inactive vACCs are part of the Open Sky Area. The status of vACCs can be checked here: http://api.vateud.net/subdivisions. There is one exception I'm aware of: Malta is currently covered by vACC Italy and therefore not Open Sky Area.

For some of the inactive vACCs, there are even sector files available: http://files.aero-nav.com/. So don't hesitate ...

[Wygene Chong 1089621]

That is really interesting Johnny, thank you for posting. I would be interested in seeing how that works in Greenland for example, where we are really looking for more regular ATC apart from events.

 

At least from the Scandinavian perspective, we've found from experience that visiting controllers largely control for a short period of time, then leave us without a trace. This is frustrating. In Iceland/Greenland, we have prioritised visiting controllers for years, as they obviously have the rating already and the experience. The training consists essentially of 1-2 sessions without any formal OTS/exam, with the aim to achieve a satisfactory understanding of local procedure (i.e. not perfection). However, the fact that they leave means we are quite disheartened about accepting new visitors. It is a waste of time.

 

That's why I am interested in that Irish vACC reading programme. We already have extensive docomeentation for Iceland/Greenland, and limiting this 'self-learning visitor' to more remote airports would encourage more regional traffic. Of course we would still insist on proper training at major airports like BIKF, BIRK, BIAR and EKVG, where procedures cannot really be learnt without guided practice.

 

Some food for thought for VATEUD/VATEUR or VATSIM as a whole?

[Johnny Coughlan]

Open Sky is an initiative within VATEUD allowing the members of any vACC within the VATEUR Region to open up any position in a designated Open Sky Area in order to bring online presence to current dormant or non-existent areas of VATEUD. Do we even have any areas without/fall under a vACC?.

From my understanding, all inactive vACCs are part of the Open Sky Area. The status of vACCs can be checked here: http://api.vateud.net/subdivisions. There is one exception I'm aware of: Malta is currently covered by vACC Italy and therefore not Open Sky Area.

For some of the inactive vACCs, there are even sector files available: http://files.aero-nav.com/. So don't hesitate ...

 

Yes Jonas but how many are actually inactive? so Latvia doesnt take Estonia like Italy does with Malta?.

 

But my main point was as an option that has been available for years some changes would be nice.

 

That is really interesting Johnny, thank you for posting. I would be interested in seeing how that works in Greenland for example, where we are really looking for more regular ATC apart from events.

 

At least from the Scandinavian perspective, we've found from experience that visiting controllers largely control for a short period of time, then leave us without a trace. This is frustrating. In Iceland/Greenland, we have prioritised visiting controllers for years, as they obviously have the rating already and the experience. The training consists essentially of 1-2 sessions without any formal OTS/exam, with the aim to achieve a satisfactory understanding of local procedure (i.e. not perfection). However, the fact that they leave means we are quite disheartened about accepting new visitors. It is a waste of time.

 

That's why I am interested in that Irish vACC reading programme. We already have extensive docomeentation for Iceland/Greenland, and limiting this 'self-learning visitor' to more remote airports would encourage more regional traffic. Of course we would still insist on proper training at major airports like BIKF, BIRK, BIAR and EKVG, where procedures cannot really be learnt without guided practice.

 

Some food for thought for VATEUD/VATEUR or VATSIM as a whole?

 

Wygene I totally understand the frustration were time and effort is invested in training visiting controllers only for them to disappear and it is that fact that leaves the rest wanting to really visit be treated with prejudice.

 

When we decided to discuss the green card program six years ago we had a vACC meeting on teamspeak with members, a lot were naturally against but I made the point that we were only selecting regional airports that were not regularly manned by local members and leaving out main busy airport Dublin EIDW out of the scheme along with the CTR positions.

 

There was still resistance until it was pointed out the fact that people who don't regularly(sometimes not at all) man positions only seem to care about them when we open them up to allow non local controllers man them, nobody could argue with that and we implemented the scheme.

 

You'll soon find that even though you open the door, a lot may not even take you up on your generosity and no 'invasion' of outsiders will even happen but those that do will add a needed service to those airports overlooked by locals.

 

If you've the docomeentation and sector files needed to man those selected airports it is just case of trusting your fellow VATSIM ATC'S to be able to study what you prepared, that way you don't have to worry who comes and goes as long a they follow the docomeentation provided so everyone works from the same procedures.

 

I know it's a brave move to just allow visiting controllers to log on without any oversite and mistakes will be made but a quick pointing out of the mistake will soon fix it. It's all about trust.

 

Food for thought indeed.

[Dace Nicmane]

so Latvia doesnt take Estonia like Italy does with Malta?

Latvia doesn't take Estonia, but perhaps we should take Lithuania which has no activity at all.

[GIORGIO Tresoldi]

I think that everything comes down to some common sense.

 

In Italy (just like in all "GNG ACCs") the sector files contain almost all the informations you need to control: SID, STAR, MrVA, COPX. Everything should be pretty straight forward.

 

Controllers with a certain experience get a short written introduction that covers the most "uncommon" local procedures and that's it. An idea could be to integrate "learning modules" to learn local procedures in an online platform (perhaps on an EUD level) to allow for shorter waiting times and less workload for the Training Departments.

 

Of course I understand that major airports or busy areas might need a special introduction.

[Mark-Julius Pikat]

So Latvia doesn't take Estonia like Italy does with Malta?

 

There is no connection at all between Latvia and Estonia. Moreover, VACC Estonia is operating, we are not official just yet.