A few things for pilots

[Fredric Greenblott 1346549]

This has probably been said before, but I'm just voicing my opinion on it. Just 3 things I wanted to address:

 

1. Commercial airliners and Cessna's don't mix. I can't tell you how many times I've been landing at major airports in the US where I'm stuck in a holding pattern while a Cessna 182 or PA28 is landing in front of me on the same runway that's in use for commercial airliners. Please, if at all possible, land at a municipal airport that doesn't hold the flow of commercial traffic.

 

2. Listen! I can excuse beginner pilots from this because, well, they're new, but some of the pilots that have been on for a while don't seem to bother to listen to ATC instructions every so often. Readbacks repeated several times, them not contacting a center until they're several miles inside their airspace, and not obeying ATC instructions and doing what they think is best.

 

3. Fly the SIDS and STARS correctly! I once was at LAX about to take off, and ATC asked me, "SWAXXX, you're not going to mess up the VTU6 departure, are you? I've had about 7 people mess it up tonight." I said no sir, and that I've flown it before. Please, if you don't have a functional FMC (and even if you do), read the charts! FMC's only input the default altitudes for the SIDS and STARS. VNAV doesn't always necessarily get things right, or ATC may tell you to proceed direct, change an altitude, or vector you in for spacing. And if worse comes to worse, you can always ask ATC for a complete vectored approach.

 

Sorry if my rant has been said before, but this is my opinion.

[Ross Carlson]

I can agree about your points #2 & #3, but your point #1 is a bit more finessed. Small props and jetliners absolutely can and do mix just fine on the network and in the real world. It just requires a little extra skill on the part of the controller (knowing how best to make a slot for the prop and how best to get the prop into that slot) and attentiveness and timely and accurate responses on the part of the prop pilot. I know that's a lot to ask of some pilots (and indeed controllers) on the network, but I'd rather ask for that than ask that prop pilots avoid big airports.

 

It seems extremely excessive to me that you were put into a holding pattern for this purpose, and you're saying this has happened to you more times than you can remember. Either you are exaggerating or you've been unlucky enough to consistently run into the perfect storm of a controller that doesn't know how to handle mixed-speed traffic, and a bunch of jets plus a slow prop all arriving at the same time.

 

Anyway, to the prop pilots, no need to be afraid of the big airports, as long as you are able to follow ATC instructions. If you're uncomfortable with that, by all means, practice at the smaller airports, and come back to the major fields when you're feeling ready.

[Camden Bruno]

+1 to Ross' comments above.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

#1 get used to it not sure what your real world experience is, but they mix them in pretty regularly at major international airports, especially the one I happen to work at (MIA). so unfortunately what your saying for #1 is pretty much not true at all. you just have to coordinate with each other or use some basic common sense when you see a small prop in front of you, obviously youll want to givem more room as you are going much faster then them. same from controllers, if they are putting a jet behind a prop, they should know the jet is going to be much faster so they need to give more spacing, not sure why they would issue a hold, not required to achieve the spacing, i can tell ya in the real world when flying a 172 ive been put in front of airliners and business jets, as well as faster regional props without issue.

 

#3 the loop departure is a popular one that FMC's regularly mess up and people turn right instead of left

[Fredric Greenblott 1346549]

I can agree about your points #2 & #3, but your point #1 is a bit more finessed. Small props and jetliners absolutely can and do mix just fine on the network and in the real world. It just requires a little extra skill on the part of the controller (knowing how best to make a slot for the prop and how best to get the prop into that slot) and attentiveness and timely and accurate responses on the part of the prop pilot. I know that's a lot to ask of some pilots (and indeed controllers) on the network, but I'd rather ask for that than ask that prop pilots avoid big airports.

 

It seems extremely excessive to me that you were put into a holding pattern for this purpose, and you're saying this has happened to you more times than you can remember. Either you are exaggerating or you've been unlucky enough to consistently run into the perfect storm of a controller that doesn't know how to handle mixed-speed traffic, and a bunch of jets plus a slow prop all arriving at the same time.

 

Anyway, to the prop pilots, no need to be afraid of the big airports, as long as you are able to follow ATC instructions. If you're uncomfortable with that, by all means, practice at the smaller airports, and come back to the major fields when you're feeling ready.

 

For #1, I am not exaggerating. It seems that whenever I fly to most places in the southwest this can happen. This has happened recently when I've flown into KPHX. Most recently there was a C182 landing on 7L, and I was told by the approach controller to turn to a vector for spacing. Took about 10 minutes before I was cleared to land for the ILS. But yes, I understand there ARE many general aviation airplanes landing at commercial airports, but sometimes things can get a little out of hand. It doesn't happen often, I'll say, but I guess I've been in the wrong place at the wrong time . Who knows? For me, it's also happened at KJFK and KPDX.

[Fredric Greenblott 1346549]

#1 get used to it not sure what your real world experience is, but they mix them in pretty regularly at major international airports, especially the one I happen to work at (MIA). so unfortunately what your saying for #1 is pretty much not true at all. you just have to coordinate with each other or use some basic common sense when you see a small prop in front of you, obviously youll want to givem more room as you are going much faster then them. same from controllers, if they are putting a jet behind a prop, they should know the jet is going to be much faster so they need to give more spacing, not sure why they would issue a hold, not required to achieve the spacing, i can tell ya in the real world when flying a 172 ive been put in front of airliners and business jets, as well as faster regional props without issue.

 

#3 the loop departure is a popular one that FMC's regularly mess up and people turn right instead of left

 

I am a pilot in training, and I always fly out of KSDL (Scottsdale) when I do my flight training in my Cirrus SR20. The biggest plane that I've seen land there is a CRJ-900. I regularly go planespotting at Sky Harbor and I don't think I've ever seen a Cessna or a Cirrus ever land there... Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

vectoring is not a hold, hes doing as he told you, vectoring to give more spacing, you dont need 10 minute spacing, but thats a controller issue itself as Ross mentioned, controller was probably overdoing it to prevent an error later

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

heres an example of a 182 at PHX

 

as you can see, can totally be done, especially in the middle of the day.

[Fredric Greenblott 1346549]

heres an example of a 182 at PHX

 

as you can see, can totally be done, especially in the middle of the day.

 

Huh! I stand corrected. I'm surprised I never see a general aviation aircraft whenever I planespot there though.

[Camden Bruno]

As Ernesto stated, being vectored back around isn't the same as a hold. Hence why we were extremely surprised. The fact that it took 10 minutes until you were established again and cleared to land isn't too long, to be honest. It could've been due to your speed, other traffic, etc.

I can't tell you how many times I've been landing at major airports in the US where I'm stuck in a holding pattern while a Cessna 182 or PA28 is landing in front of me"

 

I thought you said you couldn't tell us how many times it's happened? Just twice isn't too terrible. Keep in mind the runway they land on depends on the wind, just like it does for bigger jets. Just because they're a prop doesn't mean they'll be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned a different runway.

 

As Ernesto pointed out, GA traffic at larger Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, while also not extremely common, isn't rare. Members of my flight club and I (real-world) fly into Boston Logan 1-2 times every year. They do in fact mix as long as the air traffic control is able to sequence them properly and as long as the pilots are able to comply with instructions given to them.

 

Regards,

[Fredric Greenblott 1346549]

As Ernesto stated, being vectored back around isn't the same as a hold. Hence why we were extremely surprised. The fact that it took 10 minutes until you were established again and cleared to land isn't too long, to be honest. It could've been due to your speed, other traffic, etc.

I can't tell you how many times I've been landing at major airports in the US where I'm stuck in a holding pattern while a Cessna 182 or PA28 is landing in front of me"

 

I thought you said you couldn't tell us how many times it's happened? Just twice isn't too terrible. Keep in mind the runway they land on depends on the wind, just like it does for bigger jets. Just because they're a prop doesn't mean they'll be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned a different runway.

 

As Ernesto pointed out, GA traffic at larger Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, while also not extremely common, isn't rare. Members of my flight club and I (real-world) fly into Boston Logan 1-2 times every year. They do in fact mix as long as the air traffic control is able to sequence them properly and as long as the pilots are able to comply with instructions given to them.

 

Regards,

 

If you were VFR, wouldn't you have to get cleared into the Bravo airspace before you land at a major airport like KPHX? I fly VFR out of KSDL so it seems like that would be the case...

[Don Desfosse]

I think the best quote on the subject is that although not extremely common, it isn't rare. Take, for example, KBOS, that sees generally 30-40 piston operations a day. Granted, most of those are piston twins. But there are Skyhawks and Cherokees flying Angel Flight flights that go in and out of most major airports every week, if not every day at some. I used to fly charters, singles and twins alike, in and out of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airport regularly. Sometimes same runway, depending on weather, construction, etc. My favorite times, though were when I was flying a C172RG pedaling as fast as I could downhill for 4L while big jets were coming in on 4R.... I kept pace as long as I could, pointed it out to my p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers and had some fun with it, and wondered (out loud) what the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers looking out the windows of the commercial jets were thinking seeing "that little plane" keeping up... Until of course I had to chop the power and throw in as much drag as I could as fast as I could to land and get off the runway as fast as I could to minimize my taxi time and get out of the big guys' way. Lots of fun.

 

And yes, VFR, you require a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B clearance. If you sound like you know what you're doing when you're asking for it (and hopefully back that up by performing well), they are remarkably easy to get. If you sound tentative or clueless, don't be surprised to hear the equivalent of, "Negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full...."

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Think the most common misconception, especially among student pilots is if its a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B, you arent entering it. Certainly a question that comes up often at our program and one that here at MIA the controllers themselves try to help break that stereotype. Not all Bravos are created equal though, some are harder to get into then others

[Camden Bruno]

Proof from my latest Boston Bravo clearance

 

[Lindsey Wiebe 1101951]

I think the best quote on the subject is that although not extremely common, it isn't rare. Take, for example, KBOS, that sees generally 30-40 piston operations a day. Granted, most of those are piston twins. But there are Skyhawks and Cherokees flying Angel Flight flights that go in and out of most major airports every week, if not every day at some. I used to fly charters, singles and twins alike, in and out of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airport regularly. Sometimes same runway, depending on weather, construction, etc. My favorite times, though were when I was flying a C172RG pedaling as fast as I could downhill for 4L while big jets were coming in on 4R.... I kept pace as long as I could, pointed it out to my p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers and had some fun with it, and wondered (out loud) what the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers looking out the windows of the commercial jets were thinking seeing "that little plane" keeping up... Until of course I had to chop the power and throw in as much drag as I could as fast as I could to land and get off the runway as fast as I could to minimize my taxi time and get out of the big guys' way. Lots of fun.

 

And yes, VFR, you require a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B clearance. If you sound like you know what you're doing when you're asking for it (and hopefully back that up by performing well), they are remarkably easy to get. If you sound tentative or clueless, don't be surprised to hear the equivalent of, "Negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full...."

 

I flew piston twins into Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports regularly. We would be accommodating and keep the speed up sliding down the ILS; i.e. cruise power setting while descending so we are maintaining 130kts on the ILS and keeping up with the iron. In fact ATC got used to my company and our pilots being accommodating like that and always keeping our speed up that we'd get in much more often and quicker than others as they can rely on us keeping the speed up. So as most things in life if everyone is using common sense then everyone can play nice, pilots and controllers.

[Nick Warren]

Not a Bravo, but a great example of airliners, GA, and helo's, playing together in a small sandbox on a constant basis is KSNA (John Wayne/Santa Ana). Listen to them here http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=ksna. I'm sure there are other examples across the US, but this is a good one that I know of to learn from.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

I did my Instrument training in KABQ and had to learn to fly the approach at near full speed with a 737 in front and one behind. Not as often but an old 747 wasn't unheard of so some serious wake turbulence.

 

We are working a plant shut down at work right now, using radios for most comms, and they complain. I played them some liveatc and they thought maybe our traffic wasn't so bad after all. I played a youtube of the conversations getting testy, they thought it sounded a bit like us too.

[Johnathan Ellis 1250874]

Mix of GA and Commercial happens daily....and everywhere. I live on the Final Approach course for CYYZ, and it so happens 3 of the top schools in the country to obtain your PPL or CPL are within the airspace. Just today I saw a BA 747 turn final with a C172 from one of the schools p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] underneath it. Was an amazing sight to see

[Trent Hopkinson]

 

me in the right seat of a Piper PA28 Archer at YSCB, (The capital city of Australia) mixing it in with the 737's, E190's, 717's and DH8D's at Canberra International Airport.

Real world.