Radio "discrimination" because of my age?

[Klearchos Terpos 1300702]

Regards everyone,

 

This situation has been troubling me for the last few months, so I decided to express it here to get the community's opinions and thoughts about it.

 

I am a member of vatsim since September 2014. I have completed 1800 hours online already. My knowledge is at a great level and I am above average when it comes to communicating with atc. My readbacks are always clear, quick, readable and most importantly, I follow all instructions correctly. But what really dissapoints me and I find derogatory is when I am treated differently then other members. For example, I first contact London control and my controller texts the instructions while talking them out, BEFORE I even readback (which I do it immediately!). This makes me feel like I am a newbie with 20 hours who can't say anything on the frequency. This happens mainly in western european firs, like egtt or lfff. I sound young, perhaps 1-2 years younger than my actual age (16). At once I thought it might be because of my mic but I soon realized this wasn't the case, as it happens constantly, mainly with CTR controllerts. I am fed up adding after my readback "no need to text me sir".

 

I strongly believe that all members deserve to be treated equally.

Thank you for reading, I hope you can understand me and I look forward to your answers.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

ok first off i would say CALM down. this isnt discriminatory, not even close. stop [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming (see dictionary for what that actually means)

 

could be any number of reasons to send you a copy of the instruction on text, first, they do not know you (see point 1). if it helps [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure their traffic get the information, especially if the controller has an accent, nothing wrong here.

 

second, as for

 

This makes me feel like I am a newbie with 20 hours who can't say anything on the frequency.

 

please for the love of all that is good, please do not start to develop an ego. lets check that before it continues to grow.

 

cant wait to see the response when you come across a controller who is only text or vice versa, can receive voice but send text only

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Klearchos,

 

I feel you are overreacting to a courtesy the controller is performing. I have seen the act of a controller transmitting a clearance or instruction by voice and simultaneously sending a text of the verbal as well many, many times on VATSIM.

 

I always looked on it as "what a nice controller" and never took their actions to be discriminatory in any way, especially when giving me the METAR for an uncontrolled field I am flying in to. KZAN ARTCC in Alaska does that quite frequently, as I am sure do many other ARTCC/FIRs. I typically already have the weather for my destination, but seeing textual confirmation of what I expect to "see" is a comforting feeling for me.

 

If you still have doubts and the airspace is not busy next time it happens, take the time to "take it off frequency" and PM the controller asking why he or she sent you text when you are clearly voice and experienced. Be as considerate as I believe the controllers are being when they send the same info to you by both voice and text.

 

Something I just thought of as well. It is possible, but perhaps not likely, that the Region Training Protocol is always provide both voice and text when possible for the benefit of pilots in the area with hearing disabilities. I learn just as much about what the airspace around me "looks like" by listening to and reading controller communication with other pilots as much as I do with me, perhaps even more so. Not everyone around you is voice capable. When the controller texts your instruction as well as uses voice to you, he or she is also letting other aircraft that use text around you know what is supposed to be happening near them.

 

Just ease up and don't take offense. Enjoy the network, not second guess it.

 

Randy

[Klearchos Terpos 1300702]

ok first off i would say CALM down. this isnt discriminatory, not even close. stop [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming (see dictionary for what that actually means)

 

could be any number of reasons to send you a copy of the instruction on text, first, they do not know you (see point 1). if it helps [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure their traffic get the information, especially if the controller has an accent, nothing wrong here.

 

second, as for

 

This makes me feel like I am a newbie with 20 hours who can't say anything on the frequency.

 

please for the love of all that is good, please do not start to develop an ego. lets check that before it continues to grow.

 

cant wait to see the response when you come across a controller who is only text or vice versa, can receive voice but send text only

 

Well, it seems you misunderstood me. I am not developing any sort of ego. It doesn't have nothing to do with accent as well. Foreign pilots are all treated same. Now I don't have anything against newbies, neither did I intend to sound derogatory, I just tried to make a comparison so that I could be understood. And yes, I know what discrimination means, and that's why I used "". Perhaps you also misinterpreted my tone. I am not furious or angry, I was just trying to communicate my point clearly.

 

Klearchos,

 

I feel you are overreacting to a courtesy the controller is performing. I have seen the act of a controller transmitting a clearance or instruction by voice and simultaneously sending a text of the verbal as well many, many times on VATSIM.

 

I always looked on it as "what a nice controller" and never took their actions to be discriminatory in any way, especially when giving me the METAR for an uncontrolled field I am flying in to. KZAN ARTCC in Alaska does that quite frequently, as I am sure do many other ARTCC/FIRs. I typically already have the weather for my destination, but seeing textual confirmation of what I expect to "see" is a comforting feeling for me.

 

If you still have doubts and the airspace is not busy next time it happens, take the time to "take it off frequency" and PM the controller asking why he or she sent you text when you are clearly voice and experienced. Be as considerate as I believe the controllers are being when they send the same info to you by both voice and text.

 

Something I just thought of as well. It is possible, but perhaps not likely, that the Region Training Protocol is always provide both voice and text when possible for the benefit of pilots in the area with hearing disabilities. I learn just as much about what the airspace around me "looks like" by listening to and reading controller communication with other pilots as much as I do with me, perhaps even more so. Not everyone around you is voice capable. When the controller texts your instruction as well as uses voice to you, he or she is also letting other aircraft that use text around you know what is supposed to be happening near them.

 

Just ease up and don't take offense. Enjoy the network, not second guess it.

 

Randy

 

Thank you for your answer and for keeping your tone low. I will keep in mind what you said!

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

as someone who has actually faced real discrimination in the world, you can see why someone complaining they are somehow being discriminated against because they are receiving voice and text followed up seems ridiculous, and as Randy mentioned, bit over dramatic.

 

choose your words a bit better in the future. when real discrimination happens, especially on the network, youll find I and many others will be the first to help, but when people go around making an unwarranted complaint like that for no real reason, i have to question whether the user actually knows the difference.

[Klearchos Terpos 1300702]

My point is that I don't want controllers to automatically think that my abilities and my competence to fly and communicate are lower than everyone else's just because of the way my voice sounds on the frequency. It's that simple. Excuse me for not being a walking dictionary. Thank you for your answers.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

and again, you are [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming thats what they are doing and we are trying to tell you thats not the case

[Camden Bruno]

I often do this as a courtesy to pilots. Specifically on the Center level, we have a lot going on and that can result in us being a tad rushed at times. Therefore, i'll send text instructions along with my voice instructions just for the sake of clarity. I do this most often for the more complex instructions, such as full route clearances and any instruction that involves a waypoint (i.e. "Cleared direct ABCDE").

 

You are taking this personally, when in reality controllers do it to be helpful and clear, regardless of how old the pilot sounds on frequency or how much experience/knowledge/hours they have. If they were doing something hurtful or said anything related to how you sound, i'd understand why you are upset. But what they're doing doesn't hurt anyone, isn't negative, and is intended to be helpful to all pilots. There is no evidence that supports your accusation of discrimination based on your voice. Therefore, as Ernesto has said, it is a complete [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption.

[Lewis Hardcastle]

I often send instructions via both voice and text in situations where I really don't want someone to miss the instruction. We all know accents and the voice quality can cause slight lags/stutters between different people. So it's definitely useful in high workload situations

[Trent Hopkinson]

On vatsim, you aren't a name and age. You are a callsign, aircraft type, altitude and route.

 

When I flew the Washington DCA FNO the other week (inauguration event) my clearance was significantly changed from what I had filed. The entire route. I was very glad that he didn't just "Say" "Ammended route, cleared via WAVEY EMJAY J174 ZIZZI ATR V308 LAFLN DEALE2" when my original flight plan was RBV J230 COPES J75 MXE CLIPR1

Having a hard copy of the text was useful, instead of trying to figure out how to correctly spell Wavy? MJ? J17 for? Sissy? Laffin? Deal to?

 

Other awesome text things include getting PDC from ATC at KATL on the ground. awesome logging in, and getting a text before you even speak to anyone, then only having to chat to ground after push-start. If only we could have that pop up in the actual ACARS/CPDLC in the aircraft Virtual Cockpit.

Edited January 29, 2017 at 10:25 PM by Guest

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hey Trent,

 

that's why DCL/PDC is soooooo nice!

[Kirk Christie]

Foreign pilots are all treated same.

 

But you are the only one being discriminated against?

[Robert Shearman Jr]

My readbacks are always clear, quick, readable and most importantly, I follow all instructions correctly.

Trust me -- if that's true, your controller will take notice immediately and treat you accordingly. That tells them much more about how they need to treat you than the sound of your voice does.

[Dace Nicmane]

You're imagining this. I often get mistaken for a boy because I'm female (how do I know this? when they call me 'sir'!), yet they're not sending me text except on a rare occasion, mostly when there's a communication problem. Perhaps it's just one controller or two.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hey guys and girls,

 

come on, slow down, let's take him a bit more serious. I do not believe that he'd take to the forums to voice his concerns if he did not feel this way.

 

Klearchos, may I suggest you the following: whenever this happens to you again, why not drop a private chat message to the controller question? This may be the best and the most efficient way to find out why he is sending you duplicated messages. When flying around VATSIM-Europe it is very unusual to find controllers who send text-messages to pilots, although they actually talk to them on voice. Unless, of course, the pilot is new/inexperienced and the ATCO reckons that he/she needs a bit more support regarding communication.

 

So, next time just ask the controller whether he has a problem understanding your readbacks or whether he is unsure that you will understand him and comply. Maybe it is just a "bad" habit by the ATC and he has not bad intentions. And: do not take it personally too much.

[Martijn Rammeloo]

Klearchos,

 

There may also be a technical cause: when our controller software (in my case Euroscope) has established you as a text pilot, it will always issue text commands to you whenever I change something in your 'tag' on my screen, like heading, speed, and altitude. Obviously, this is a nice feature, sparing me from typing lots of commands.

 

Ofcourse, you should not receive this 'treatment'. Perhaps a controller manually changed your comms method to text. I sometimes do that when voice comms alone don't give me the desired results. This could be caused by (perceived) pilot proficiency, but also factors like the quality of VATSIM voice, that sometimes is below par.

 

Another possibility is that you selected the text option yourself in your pilot client.

 

Anyway, at least with 'my' VACC, discrimination based on age is unheard of. As a matter of fact, many controllers are 14-18 years old themselves.

 

Martijn

EHAM APP controller

[Andreas Fuchs]

Just had a look at Klearchos' last few flights, he had always filed correctly with /V/ in his remarks. Cannot be this, or at least highly unlikely.