Hold @ RNAV Waypoint - FAA Phraseology?

[Steven Perry]

What is the correct phraseology for a holding "radial" at an RNAV waypoint?

 

e.g. KOMMA has a published hold on high enroute charts (and the SEEVR STAR at KDFW). See skyvector chart here.

 

Is that "hold NE on the 037 radial?" or is it a bearing? or course? track?

 

KOMMA is defined by the FSM 215, but the hold is on 037/217 as shown on the high enroute and the SEEVR STAR.

[Daniel Hawton]

Since it's published, you would say "cleared to komma, hold (direction) of komma as published."

[Steven Perry]

... and for the other half of VATSIM pilots who don't actually look at the charts?

[Bradley Grafelman]

... and for the other half of VATSIM pilots who don't actually look at the charts?

... you're probably wasting your time trying to issue holding instructions to begin with. I'm actually not being facetious/sarcastic (for once ); do you really think the discipline/ability to read a chart is likely to come after the ability to decipher and execute detailed holding instructions?

 

To answer your question... what feels most natural to you from a pilot's perspective? Me personally, when I think of navigating via GPS, I think of things like desired track, not bearings (and certainly not radials). So, if I were to re-create that published hold using as many words as I could, I'd probably say:

 

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.

along with an altitude limit and an EFC.

 

Here is a JetCareers forum topic that appears to have some discussion on the same topic. (Couldn't find a StuckMic thread after a brief search.)

[Steven Perry]

Good find, thanks! I'll go with track.

 

As for holding before charts... maybe. There's a "HOLD" button on the Boeing CDUs and entry from there is reasonably intuitive. Airbus operators are excellent button pushers so they have a chance at finding their version of a hold, wherever that might be.

 

I've had decent success with issuing holds over the years. Most common mistake is they flip the direction of the hold.. e.g. "Cleared to ABC, hold NORTH on the 360 radial" will yield about 75% of pilots holding NORTH and flying the 360 radial inbound (i.e. OBS set to 180), 20% holding on the south side (presumably with the OBS set to 360), and 5% holding east on R-090 because beer.

[Bradley Grafelman]

5% holding east on R-090 because beer.

I see you, too, have been graced with DD weaving in and out of your airspace on some fine evening.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

when using instructions online like track though, just be aware some autopilot regulars have no idea of the difference between a heading vs a track and often gets confused. keep it as simple as you can and youll reduce errors later

 

the other part that will more then likely confuse online pilots regularly, since they often confuse real world pilots as well, are instructions like "hold northeast of XYZ". youll get mixed responses on what that actually means even from real pilots if its something they dont have experience with. think Justin at mzeroA did a video about that as well to help the confusion with that instruction, i honestly never completely got this instruction until it was explained at school, then it was like "ahhhhhhh" lol

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Okay, so as one who enjoys being placed in holds by ATC I have a comment.

 

I typically use the high enroutes from Navigraph based on Jeppeson and they look far different from the high enroutes on Skyvector, although I'm just as "at ease" with the Skyvector charts and use them as well.

 

I have never noticed those hold "racetracks" before. I am quite familiar with arrival and approach holds. They are easy to understand, but now I have questions...about these newly discovered enroute holds.

 

The published hold at KOMMA in the example Steven offered is indeed on a 037/217 track. That's easy enough to see. The track does not "touch" the waypoint symbol for KOMMA, however. Does the hold begin and end at KOMMA or some arbitrary point in space slightly east and slightly north of KOMMA as the chart appears to indicate? Is that why Daniel used the phrase...

 

cleared to komma, hold (direction) of komma as published

 

If the answer is "yes", what determines where in space that arbitrary point is? Or, was the "direction" in Daniel's phrase meant to highlight the right hand turns as the chart depicts. I noticed in Bradley's quote he changed it to read...

 

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.

 

That to me is more clear except I still don't know if this is an arbitrary position north and east of KOMMA (I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume it is by Bradley's "northeast" comment) and, if so, where that arbitrary point is.

 

Finally, as Steven states by way of an example...

 

"Cleared to ABC, hold NORTH on the 360 radial" would be even more confusing than a published hold depicted on the chart. I realize he is talking about a different hold in a different place by way of example showing people would not fly the hold correctly, but I can guarantee I would probably screw this up myself and, as I said, I love flying holds. I can understand why some are south and some are north...and we all know why Don flies east...

 

If he had offered...

 

"Cleared to ABC, hold 5 miles North of ABC outbound (or inbound) on the 360 radial, right hand turns, 1 minute, FL210, speed 230kts"

 

...that, I could fly!

 

Oh, and unless Steven is calling the "arbitrary point" an RNAV waypoint (which I don't think it really is) I wonder why his subject has the Acronym "RNAV" in it. KOMMA is not an RNAV point on the airway as far as I know.

 

Randy

[Bradley Grafelman]

The track does touch the waypoint. The chart, however, simply doesn't overlay all of the relevant symbols precisely over the waypoint since doing so would likely make the chart much less readable.

 

Relevant reference from the AIM:

[Steven Perry]

I usually ad lib some plain English clarification. E.g. Hold north of ABC on the 360 radial... remain NORTH of the VOR, 180 heading inbound 360 heading outbound..

 

In practice, as long as the pilots stay in the vicinity of the holding point at the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned altitude, it is usually close enough for VATSIM work. I haven't worked any VATUSA facilities that have defined the holding pattern protected airspace and we rarely have multiple stacks in the same area that could reasonably interfere with each other.

[Krikor Hajian]

4−6−4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS

When issuing holding instructions, specify:

a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.

b. Holding fix or waypoint.

NOTE−

The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning

of the transmission as the clearance limit.

c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway,

or route on which the aircraft is to hold.

d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be

used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot

requests it or you consider it necessary.

e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left

turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you

consider it necessary.

PHRASEOLOGY−

HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial,

course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)

If leg length is specified,

(number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.

If direction of turn is specified,

LEFT/RIGHT TURNS

 

So radial doesn't work for an RNAV fix like you mentioned, but track or course does, I'd just use one of those. That said, I've found that most pilots are actually able to fly published holds, especially if the holds are published on a STAR. So then it's just "Cleared to KOMMA, hold as published, expect further clearance...

 

I was working Boston Center during the large EDDF-KJFK group flight a few months ago, when N90 told me to start holding I had a stack of 10 aircraft from 12,000' all the way up to FL220 over CCC and another 4 or 5 holding over TRAIT, I think I had two who couldn't accept a hold and just got vectored over the ocean and one who flew right turns instead of left turns.

[Dace Nicmane]

I'd probably say:

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.

Wouldn't you give the inbound track (217) rather than outbound?

 

Also, in Steven's example, if the holding is on R360, wouldn't you say "hold Northwest" or "Northeast" (depending on right or left turns) rather than North?

 

In Europe they say "inbound course" or "inbound radial" (for a VOR). No ambiguity.

[Daniel Hawton]

I'd probably say:

Cleared to KOMMA, hold northeast on the 037 track, one [and one half] minute legs, right turns.

Wouldn't you give the inbound track (217) rather than outbound?

 

Also, in Steven's example, if the holding is on R360, wouldn't you say "hold Northwest" or "Northeast" (depending on right or left turns) rather than North?

 

In Europe they say "inbound course" or "inbound radial" (for a VOR). No ambiguity.

 

The inbound track is 037 if you are issuing right turns and wanting them to hold NE. If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW. Given its diagram, it'd be more east over NE. Bu really all you need to say per the .65 is "Cleared to KOMMA. Hold east as published. EFC at ___, time now ___." Done. I've never used published holds enroute on VATSIM, I tend to pick major points and do a full hold instruction. Only arrival or approach charted holds do I use because few people seem to use Skyvector along the enroute portion.

 

the other part that will more then likely confuse online pilots regularly, since they often confuse real world pilots as well, are instructions like "hold northeast of XYZ".

Never before have I had a rw pilot not understand "Hold as published" as that's integral part of instrument training and I've worked several dozen instrument students and professionals rw with published holds. NE just verifies the side so when they look at the chart versus what they will do they know which side to be holding on.

[Dace Nicmane]

If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW.

I'd say it'd put them North, but depending on how long the leg is, if it's longer, it would be slightly Northeast.

Inbound track 037 would put them South, wouldn't it??

[Daniel Hawton]

If you told them track 217 right turns, that would put them NW.

I'd say it'd put them North, but depending on how long the leg is, if it's longer, it would be slightly Northeast.

Inbound track 037 would put them South, wouldn't it??

 

Depends completely on the turns... Visualize in your head where you'd turn from KOMMA tracking 037 right 180 degrees to 217. Where will that put you in relation to KOMMA? East. Now if you are tracking 217 at KOMMA and turned right, you would turn on the west side. It's not where the end of the leg is but where the outbound leg starts and in general where the outbound leg is. I'd call 037/published east or southeast.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Daniel i wouldnt expect those errors from experienced pilots either, im talking inexperienced low time pilots. was a special topic about a year or two back on a FAASafety seminar we held pilots were doing it wrong in certain circomestances. maybe its just florida? lol or the influx of foreign student pilots we get down here whos english isnt perfect that causes it.

 

for instance "Hold NE on the 030 radial" you could get any of the 3 results in this graphic. #1 being the correct one youd expect, #2 being what youd expect if told "X miles NE" but some simply did it when they heard NE, or #3 which is just wrong unless told specifically otherwise lol

 

[Dace Nicmane]

Visualize in your head where you'd turn from KOMMA tracking 037 right 180 degrees to 217. Where will that put you in relation to KOMMA? East.

Why would it matter that I'll initially be turning East, if I'm actually turning Southwest, and most of my hold will be South of the fix? Looking at where the hold in general is, it's South from the fix, could be even Southwest, if the leg is longer. If looking where the outbound leg is, it's Southeast or South, but never Northeast.

[Dace Nicmane]

That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."

[Steven Perry]

And now we see how we can all be confused about holding.

 

The holding direction specifies what side of the hold point you should remain (except the outbound turn just after crossing the point). Changing the turn direction makes no difference to what direction you stay from the hold point... north is north, whether your turn left or right!

 

If holding on R-360, you have two options, hold north or south. If holding on R-360 with an inbound course of 180 and right turns, you will turn to the west and remain in the NW quadrant, but you are still holding north of the point. If making left turns, you will be in the NE quadrant, but still holding north of the point.

 

But how could you hold south on R-360? When holding at a fix rather than the VOR. If "WAYPT" is defined as the "ABC VOR 360 radial 10 DME fix" (i.e. WAYPT is 10 miles north of ABC) and your clearance is "Cleared to WAYPT, hold south on the ABC 360 radial, right turns, 10 mile legs" your hold would be between ABC and WAYPT, with your inbound leg starting right over top ABC.

 

I do like the Euro way of calling the inbound course/radial. That sounds less confusing. Maybe one day we'll have that here... but I do still occasionally revert to "position & hold" rather than "line up & wait" after how many years?

[Daniel Hawton]

You can't tell someone to hold north on the 270 radial left turns... So turns are definitely a factor.

[Daniel Hawton]

That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."

 

Not at all. That number 1 example has an inbound track heading southwest... KOMMA inbound is 037 which is northeast. Completely wrong aside of the fix which is help caught by the statement " hold north as published" which would clue the pilot in saying "you can't hold north on a 037 track with right turns". Turns would be a factor in east/west.

 

Ernesto, again, I've never had students or long time professional pilots rw get confused. Inbound and direction of turns are specific. Anyone who does #2 or #3 are wrong... Plain and simple. It is a basic lesson in instrument flight.

[Steven Perry]

You can't tell someone to hold north on the 270 radial left turns...

 

Right... because you either hold east or west of the fix on a 270 radial.

[Daniel Hawton]

You can't tell someone to hold north on the 270 radial left turns...

 

Right... because you either hold east or west of the fix on a 270 radial.

 

When did RNAV fixes get radials?

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

After having read the JetCareers Forum Discussion linked above it's still confusing to me somewhat. Performing a hold off any VOR or any fix on an Departure, Arrival, or Approach Chart is easy-peasy for me. The depiction on the chart leaves no doubt in my mind the direction inbound to the holding fix, the type of entry I need to make, the length of the inbound and outbound legs, the turns, etc.

 

Performing one while enroute at a random fix is where the confusion arises for me. If I'm told to hold North of a fix (waypoint , NDB, or VOR) that's easy. I know which area in the airspace is North of a fix. Start throwing in tracks, radials, bearings, and turns and I think, even to the professional ATCOs in the JetCareers discussion, there is the potential for confusion in both the pilot and the ATCO.

 

If I am told to hold North of fix ABC (not a VOR) on a track, heading, or course of 360 inbound to the fix there is no way I will be North of the fix. If I'm told on a Bearing it's even more confusing because the JetCareers discussion specifically said "Bearing" can mean to or from. Also, bearing for the pilot is completely different from bearing for the fix, unless bearing for a pilot always means "to" and bearing for a fix always means "from". Radials is a little easier to visualize because, I believe, they are always "from".

 

So, if you want me to hold North of ABC on a Bearing, Heading, Radial, Course, or Track of 360 degrees, that 360 degrees has got to be the outbound leg of the hold, doesn't it, in order for me to stay North of the fix? Everything else is easy enough to deduce. I'll fly right turns unless you tell me to turn left or the chart shows a hold racetrack indicating left. I'll fly 1 minute legs unless you tell me otherwise. I'll fly at my current altitude (or the one on the chart if specified) unless you tell me otherwise. I'll fly at my current speed (or the one on the chart if specified) unless you tell me otherwise.

 

Randy

[Dace Nicmane]

That first image is very much like our KOMMA example, except it's radial instead of track, i.e. reciprocal, so if giving a fix instead of a VOR and track instead of radial, you'd give "hold northeast, on the 210 track..."

 

Not at all. That number 1 example has an inbound track heading southwest... KOMMA inbound is 037 which is northeast. Completely wrong aside of the fix which is help caught by the statement " hold north as published" which would clue the pilot in saying "you can't hold north on a 037 track with right turns".

You can't hold North on a 037 track with any turns. If your inbound track is 037, then you're either holding South (right turns) or Southwest (left turns). The only way to hold Northeast, is on a 217 track, or as in Ernesto's picture, 210 track (=030 radial), with right turns being more North and left turns being more East, the difference is just these 7° and fix vs. VOR.